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I think it's even more degrading than that. Canada basically exports healthy, educated, wealthy people to the US for little in return (well, other than being be

I think it's even more degrading than that. Canada basically exports healthy, educated, wealthy people to the US for little in return (well, other than being best friends with the world superpower anyway). As long as there's favorable compensation and tax policies on the US side, Canada's brightest, healthiest, and wealthiest will just hop over to benefit from the more favorable conditions there after reaping the expensive taxpayer funded social benefits (healthy upbringing, affordable higher education).

spir 5y ago
It's true and sad.
david-gpu 5y ago
> Canada's brightest, healthiest, and wealthiest will just hop over to benefit from the more favorable conditions there after reaping the expensive taxpayer funded social benefits The bulk of Canadian taxes are paid by the "brightest, healthiest and wealthiest" [0], so the expensive social benefits Canadians enjoy are largely funded by extracting taxes from these people, not the other way around. Thus, I can hardly blame them for moving to a place where they don't have to subsidize others as much. [0] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&pickMembers%5B1%5D=3.5&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2014&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2018&referencePeriods=20140101%2C20180101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000...
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Nice argument, but when you look at the data, it doesn't make sense. According to your link, the top 10% of Canadians pay about 50% of the taxes in Canada. In the US, the top 10% pay a larger share: 70% (although this is only federal data).[1] So moving to the US to avoid subsidizing others is probably not the best rationale. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/#_ftn1 https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-inco...
  - kenhwang 5y ago
    A 90th percentile Canadian in BC would make ~$100k and pay 25.37% to taxes. A 90th percentile American in Washington right across the boarder would make $125k and pay 24.53% to taxes.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      While true, it has no relevance to my comment. And it's a bit silly to compare with a state with no state income tax. Why not compare with NY, CA or OR?
      - kenhwang 5y ago
        Because it's the state right next to Canada with a major tech hub. We can compare NY to Quebec where at $125k/$100k respectively Quebec has a slight tax advantage (33.65%NY vs 32.70%QC) that goes back in favor of NY with +$20k (34.48%NY vs 35.43%QC). Ontario fares better though. Maybe that's the cause of the US rust belt. Nevermind that if you're 90th percentile of California or NY, you'd be making near $300k. So your tax rate might be 10% higher, but your take home is easily triple of what you'd have if you stayed in Canada.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        As of Jan 1, 2022, WA will take 1% of W2 (employee) income for taxes. 0.4% for family leave insurance/sick leave insurance and 0.6% for long term disability insurance. It’s income tax in everything but name.
jcims 5y ago
Does Canada claw any of that back through expat income taxes? That would seem to be a more realistic and mutually beneficial economic arrangement than expecting people to ignore an opportunity to make substantially more lifetime income out of allegiance to their birth country. We stole one in Ohio, she even married into the family. Her parents are absolutely amazing folks, just saw them on their way back from wintering in Florida (where they were actually able to get vaccinated, unlike back home where nobody is vaccinated and the cops are facetiming neighbors to make sure there are no visitors.) Maybe Canada can stabilize as an incubator for cool people and recoup those expenses through the impact they have on the world.
- eru 5y ago
  > Does Canada claw any of that back through expat income taxes? The US is the only country anyone cares about that taxes their expats.
  - jcims 5y ago
    Maybe we're on to something there.
    - eru 5y ago
      By 'we', do you mean the US? It's generally considered one of the worst aspects of the American tax system. See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Taxation_of_non-residents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Taxation_o...
      - blaser-waffle 5y ago
        Yeah is a PITA if you're overseas. Regarding the US and Canada, there are NAFTA cross-border tax rules which are complex and annoying, but not especially onerous in terms of tax obligations.
        eru 5y ago
smnrchrds 5y ago
> Canada's brightest, healthiest, and wealthiest will just hop over to benefit from the more favorable conditions there after reaping the expensive taxpayer funded social benefits I see this repeated often on the web, but I hate this saying. I work in engineering. I'm surrounded by bright individuals, both fresh and experienced. Saying the brightest people leave Canada implies only the dumb and at most the mediocre remain in Canada, which I find not only offensive, but also not matching the reality.
- sattoshi 5y ago
  There are certainly bright people who remain in Canada, but they usually have clear reasons that convince them to stay rather than double their salaries.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    Again, you are presenting (In Canada AND Bright) as a rarity, something very unusual to see in reality. This is offensive to the many many bright people in this country and it does not match the reality.
    - ludamad 5y ago
      So long as we aren't talking hard stats, I don't see how one statement is incongruent or not. Companies found in places like e.g. Kitchener, Ontario because they believe there are bright people, 100%. They are still not willing to pay them Silicon Valley salaries overall (exceptions exist)
- blaser-waffle 5y ago
  Most of the Canadians I worked with in the US have gone back to Canada. Our Principle Engineer at my last gig did like ~10 years around the DC area and then pissed off back to Calgary to raise kids and settle down. Still works remotely for the said US gig. Plus have you ever been through a winter where it dips to -40C? Fuck that noise. I'm from the south and live in Canada and never though I'd miss bitter VA winters...

spir 5y ago

It's true and sad.

david-gpu 5y ago

> Canada's brightest, healthiest, and wealthiest will just hop over to benefit from the more favorable conditions there after reaping the expensive taxpayer funded social benefits The bulk of Canadian taxes are paid by the "brightest, healthiest and wealthiest" [0], so the expensive social benefits Canadians enjoy are largely funded by extracting taxes from these people, not the other way around. Thus, I can hardly blame them for moving to a place where they don't have to subsidize others as much. [0] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&pickMembers%5B1%5D=3.5&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2014&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2018&referencePeriods=20140101%2C20180101 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000...

BeetleB 5y ago
Nice argument, but when you look at the data, it doesn't make sense. According to your link, the top 10% of Canadians pay about 50% of the taxes in Canada. In the US, the top 10% pay a larger share: 70% (although this is only federal data).[1] So moving to the US to avoid subsidizing others is probably not the best rationale. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/#_ftn1 https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-inco...
- kenhwang 5y ago
  A 90th percentile Canadian in BC would make ~$100k and pay 25.37% to taxes. A 90th percentile American in Washington right across the boarder would make $125k and pay 24.53% to taxes.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    While true, it has no relevance to my comment. And it's a bit silly to compare with a state with no state income tax. Why not compare with NY, CA or OR?
    - kenhwang 5y ago
      Because it's the state right next to Canada with a major tech hub. We can compare NY to Quebec where at $125k/$100k respectively Quebec has a slight tax advantage (33.65%NY vs 32.70%QC) that goes back in favor of NY with +$20k (34.48%NY vs 35.43%QC). Ontario fares better though. Maybe that's the cause of the US rust belt. Nevermind that if you're 90th percentile of California or NY, you'd be making near $300k. So your tax rate might be 10% higher, but your take home is easily triple of what you'd have if you stayed in Canada.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      As of Jan 1, 2022, WA will take 1% of W2 (employee) income for taxes. 0.4% for family leave insurance/sick leave insurance and 0.6% for long term disability insurance. It’s income tax in everything but name.

jcims 5y ago

Does Canada claw any of that back through expat income taxes? That would seem to be a more realistic and mutually beneficial economic arrangement than expecting people to ignore an opportunity to make substantially more lifetime income out of allegiance to their birth country. We stole one in Ohio, she even married into the family. Her parents are absolutely amazing folks, just saw them on their way back from wintering in Florida (where they were actually able to get vaccinated, unlike back home where nobody is vaccinated and the cops are facetiming neighbors to make sure there are no visitors.) Maybe Canada can stabilize as an incubator for cool people and recoup those expenses through the impact they have on the world.

eru 5y ago
> Does Canada claw any of that back through expat income taxes? The US is the only country anyone cares about that taxes their expats.
- jcims 5y ago
  Maybe we're on to something there.
  - eru 5y ago
    By 'we', do you mean the US? It's generally considered one of the worst aspects of the American tax system. See eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Taxation_of_non-residents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_American#Taxation_o...
    - blaser-waffle 5y ago
      Yeah is a PITA if you're overseas. Regarding the US and Canada, there are NAFTA cross-border tax rules which are complex and annoying, but not especially onerous in terms of tax obligations.
      - eru 5y ago

smnrchrds 5y ago

> Canada's brightest, healthiest, and wealthiest will just hop over to benefit from the more favorable conditions there after reaping the expensive taxpayer funded social benefits I see this repeated often on the web, but I hate this saying. I work in engineering. I'm surrounded by bright individuals, both fresh and experienced. Saying the brightest people leave Canada implies only the dumb and at most the mediocre remain in Canada, which I find not only offensive, but also not matching the reality.

sattoshi 5y ago
There are certainly bright people who remain in Canada, but they usually have clear reasons that convince them to stay rather than double their salaries.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  Again, you are presenting (In Canada AND Bright) as a rarity, something very unusual to see in reality. This is offensive to the many many bright people in this country and it does not match the reality.
  - ludamad 5y ago
    So long as we aren't talking hard stats, I don't see how one statement is incongruent or not. Companies found in places like e.g. Kitchener, Ontario because they believe there are bright people, 100%. They are still not willing to pay them Silicon Valley salaries overall (exceptions exist)
blaser-waffle 5y ago
Most of the Canadians I worked with in the US have gone back to Canada. Our Principle Engineer at my last gig did like ~10 years around the DC area and then pissed off back to Calgary to raise kids and settle down. Still works remotely for the said US gig. Plus have you ever been through a winter where it dips to -40C? Fuck that noise. I'm from the south and live in Canada and never though I'd miss bitter VA winters...