4 ms·

> What loyalty does an employee owe beyond doing the work that you are paid for and not stealing or violating norms or ethics? Weirdly, I do feel some sense of

> What loyalty does an employee owe beyond doing the work that you are paid for and not stealing or violating norms or ethics? Weirdly, I do feel some sense of loyalty to some companies and brands - usually stemming from a positive childhood experience. This extends to my first employer: Microsoft. Even though I haven’t worked there for 5 years I still feel as though I owe them for launching my career (making connections, great resume material, etc) and because (all things considered) I think they treated me right - that’s got to be worth something, surely?

chmod775 6y ago
You only owe them if they didn't get their money's worth.
- bashinator 6y ago
  I didn’t realize gratitude was a fungible commodity.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    Check your employment contract. Every company I've ever worked-for (including msft) all had the "The value of the company's goodwill is $0.00 USD" in it somewhere. ...insofar as gratitude and goodwill are interchangeable. Hmm, I wonder what the exchange-rate is...
ALittleLight 6y ago
I would say that your moral obligation is to speak well of Microsoft when you speak of them - as they treated you well it would be wrong for you to disparage them. You don't have any obligation to work for Microsoft longer than you want to though.
- dnautics 6y ago
  I would consider it a standard of politeness... but is that a moral obligation? What if you were treated very well but quit because you didn't like some of their... secure datacenters? Given that sort of a conflict can occur, exactly where does this moral obligation stem from?
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Maybe to go one step deeper, the moral obligation is to speak honestly and fairly to the extent that one is able, and as their honest impression was positive, then the moral obligation to speak (honestly) positively follows from that.
    - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
      Oh, of course - I don't mean that I believe Microsoft can do no-wrong: on the contrary, it (hyperbole warning) breaks my heart whenever I see Microsoft do something I feel is morally wrong or otherwise disappointing. Like seeing a loved-one go-off-the-rails, I suppose.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >as they treated you well it would be wrong for you to disparage them that's somewhere between loyalty and patronage. A moral obligation is to speak the truth, regardless if someone treated you well or not.
teawrecks 6y ago
Corporations are not people. I'm not talking about politically, I'm talking from a "conscious being" perspective. Do not think of it as a person who consciously did something "for" you. It is nothing more than a hive mind structured to create wealth as efficiently as possible. If it helped you in some way, it wasn't intentionally; it just happened that its own interests overlapped with your own for a blip in time. But the nanosecond that its interests run contrary to yours, it will swiftly trample you into the ground and will be incapable of feeling sorry about it. Have loyalty for individuals, and sometimes even teams, but never ever ever ever feel loyalty for a corporation.
- camehere3saydis 6y ago
  Agree with your general sentiment, however your wording invites one to play devil's advocate. >Have loyalty for individuals, and sometimes even teams, but never ever ever ever feel loyalty for a corporation. That's exactly what an individual would say! Is it OK to feel loyalty for a nation, then? Considering membership in one is involuntary - and that corporations don't, as a rule, exercise a monopoly on violence against their employees? >Corporations are not people [...] from a "conscious being" perspective. >If it helped you in some way, it wasn't intentionally; it just happened that its own interests overlapped with your own for a blip in time. That depends on your perspective on consciousness and intentionality. I understand that the subject is not open to debate for the majority of individuals here, so I won't bore you with elaborations. Suffice to say, if you weren't aware of the varying opinions on those, you could start by googling the "Chinese brain" thought experiment. >But the nanosecond that its interests run contrary to yours, it will swiftly trample you into the ground and will be incapable of feeling sorry about it. This can be said for sufficiently many individuals that we have a designation for them: psychopaths. When an individual acts like this, we go out of our way to reproach them. When a corporation does this, it's normal value maximization. A double standard, maybe? Moreover, humans have kept their place on top of the food pyramid for so long because corporations didn't have nanosecond-scale temporal resolution. However, thanks to the IT community's efforts, this is subject to change.
  - danielheath 6y ago

chmod775 6y ago

You only owe them if they didn't get their money's worth.

bashinator 6y ago
I didn’t realize gratitude was a fungible commodity.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  Check your employment contract. Every company I've ever worked-for (including msft) all had the "The value of the company's goodwill is $0.00 USD" in it somewhere. ...insofar as gratitude and goodwill are interchangeable. Hmm, I wonder what the exchange-rate is...

ALittleLight 6y ago

I would say that your moral obligation is to speak well of Microsoft when you speak of them - as they treated you well it would be wrong for you to disparage them. You don't have any obligation to work for Microsoft longer than you want to though.

dnautics 6y ago
I would consider it a standard of politeness... but is that a moral obligation? What if you were treated very well but quit because you didn't like some of their... secure datacenters? Given that sort of a conflict can occur, exactly where does this moral obligation stem from?
- jbay808 6y ago
  Maybe to go one step deeper, the moral obligation is to speak honestly and fairly to the extent that one is able, and as their honest impression was positive, then the moral obligation to speak (honestly) positively follows from that.
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    Oh, of course - I don't mean that I believe Microsoft can do no-wrong: on the contrary, it (hyperbole warning) breaks my heart whenever I see Microsoft do something I feel is morally wrong or otherwise disappointing. Like seeing a loved-one go-off-the-rails, I suppose.
Barrin92 6y ago
>as they treated you well it would be wrong for you to disparage them that's somewhere between loyalty and patronage. A moral obligation is to speak the truth, regardless if someone treated you well or not.

teawrecks 6y ago

Corporations are not people. I'm not talking about politically, I'm talking from a "conscious being" perspective. Do not think of it as a person who consciously did something "for" you. It is nothing more than a hive mind structured to create wealth as efficiently as possible. If it helped you in some way, it wasn't intentionally; it just happened that its own interests overlapped with your own for a blip in time. But the nanosecond that its interests run contrary to yours, it will swiftly trample you into the ground and will be incapable of feeling sorry about it. Have loyalty for individuals, and sometimes even teams, but never ever ever ever feel loyalty for a corporation.

camehere3saydis 6y ago
Agree with your general sentiment, however your wording invites one to play devil's advocate. >Have loyalty for individuals, and sometimes even teams, but never ever ever ever feel loyalty for a corporation. That's exactly what an individual would say! Is it OK to feel loyalty for a nation, then? Considering membership in one is involuntary - and that corporations don't, as a rule, exercise a monopoly on violence against their employees? >Corporations are not people [...] from a "conscious being" perspective. >If it helped you in some way, it wasn't intentionally; it just happened that its own interests overlapped with your own for a blip in time. That depends on your perspective on consciousness and intentionality. I understand that the subject is not open to debate for the majority of individuals here, so I won't bore you with elaborations. Suffice to say, if you weren't aware of the varying opinions on those, you could start by googling the "Chinese brain" thought experiment. >But the nanosecond that its interests run contrary to yours, it will swiftly trample you into the ground and will be incapable of feeling sorry about it. This can be said for sufficiently many individuals that we have a designation for them: psychopaths. When an individual acts like this, we go out of our way to reproach them. When a corporation does this, it's normal value maximization. A double standard, maybe? Moreover, humans have kept their place on top of the food pyramid for so long because corporations didn't have nanosecond-scale temporal resolution. However, thanks to the IT community's efforts, this is subject to change.
- danielheath 6y ago