6 ms·

If You Can Be Bad, You Can Also Be Good

15 points by feross 6y ago

cratermoon 6y ago
How does a rational person go from "irrational people are biased" to rationality can be "free from ideology"? Also, the original comment was "there is no such thing as "rationality" that is free from ideology", but this post shortens that to "there’s no such thing as rationality". I don't think this writer is as good at rationality as they think they are.
- DangitBobby 6y ago
  > but this post shortens that to "there’s no such thing as rationality" No, you are interpreting it in a very contrarian way. With the context of the metaphor about the speed of light, you can see that he understands people are using this expression as an out or justification for lazy thought: "there is no such thing as rationality that is free from ideology so we should not listen to people who strive to be rational." Which is fallacious and absurd. Viewed as a whole, the piece is quite coherent.
  - cratermoon 6y ago
    If the author doesn't mean the words quoted exactly, are they bad at writing, and unable to express the idea clearly enough to avoid misinterpretation? If a rational idea is communicated unclearly, how good is the rationality behind it?
    - Nevermark 6y ago
      I don't think communication clarity and rationality are the same thing, or necessarily correlated. Also, as long as both are pretty good something worthwhile is happening and the third factor, good listening and charitable interpretation, can make up most of the gap.
hprotagonist 6y ago
Talking about the impossibility of true rationality or objectivity might feel humble - you're admitting you can't do this difficult thing. But analyzed more carefully, it becomes really arrogant. You're admitting there are people worse than you - Alex Jones, the fossil fuel lobby, etc. You're just saying it's impossible to do better. You personally - or maybe your society, or some existing group who you trust - are butting up against the light speed limit of rationality and objectivity.
quantified 6y ago
The author seems to be trying to say something, but it’s muddled. As though “being better at rationality” means “free from bias”. What we all need to better at is quantifying where we are. It might be productive to find a metric for rationality and another for political bent. The article seems to take the position that irrational and political are synonymous. Competitive forces mean that being biased and political are fairly rational, just operating on different variables from the apolitical. Don’t forget why “science proceeds one funeral at a time”. His choice of Alex Jones as irrational seems odd. Jones may be, but he’s irrational like a fox- if you’re accomplishing your goals via the actions you plan out, I think that’s a good working definition of rational. Maybe just not great at including all the best variables in your equation. The flames I’ll get from writing this will show that I’m less rational than Alex.
h2odragon 6y ago
Someone can admit there is a spectrum of rationality without valuing either end especially. You can argue that they should, but in the example of Alex Jones; how many who despise him vocally do so because they disagree, and would be happy to see the guy agree with them suddenly, for any reason or none? It'd be validating and "see we were right all along!" for the anti-fans.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Nevermark 6y ago
Several responses here are questioning the value or clarity of the diatribe. I feel like there is deep irony here. Two points that seemed to be clear to me: 1. Listen charitably. Just because you have become a hyper tuned bullshit detector (of bias, irrationality, dishonesty, etc.), don't let that thread starve your ability to hear the clear thinking that comes your way. 2. Don't let down your own efforts. It isn't an excuse to stop striving to be more rational, just because no complex thoughts created by humans will be completely rational. -- A point I would add is: What imperfect rationality we have has enormous value. Let's not get jaded to that just because we are going through a tidal wave of bullshit and corrective wave of bullshit shaming.

15 points by feross 6y ago

How does a rational person go from "irrational people are biased" to rationality can be "free from ideology"? Also, the original comment was "there is no such thing as "rationality" that is free from ideology", but this post shortens that to "there’s no such thing as rationality". I don't think this writer is as good at rationality as they think they are.

DangitBobby 6y ago
> but this post shortens that to "there’s no such thing as rationality" No, you are interpreting it in a very contrarian way. With the context of the metaphor about the speed of light, you can see that he understands people are using this expression as an out or justification for lazy thought: "there is no such thing as rationality that is free from ideology so we should not listen to people who strive to be rational." Which is fallacious and absurd. Viewed as a whole, the piece is quite coherent.
- cratermoon 6y ago
  If the author doesn't mean the words quoted exactly, are they bad at writing, and unable to express the idea clearly enough to avoid misinterpretation? If a rational idea is communicated unclearly, how good is the rationality behind it?
  - Nevermark 6y ago
    I don't think communication clarity and rationality are the same thing, or necessarily correlated. Also, as long as both are pretty good something worthwhile is happening and the third factor, good listening and charitable interpretation, can make up most of the gap.

hprotagonist 6y ago

Talking about the impossibility of true rationality or objectivity might feel humble - you're admitting you can't do this difficult thing. But analyzed more carefully, it becomes really arrogant. You're admitting there are people worse than you - Alex Jones, the fossil fuel lobby, etc. You're just saying it's impossible to do better. You personally - or maybe your society, or some existing group who you trust - are butting up against the light speed limit of rationality and objectivity.

quantified 6y ago

The author seems to be trying to say something, but it’s muddled. As though “being better at rationality” means “free from bias”. What we all need to better at is quantifying where we are. It might be productive to find a metric for rationality and another for political bent. The article seems to take the position that irrational and political are synonymous. Competitive forces mean that being biased and political are fairly rational, just operating on different variables from the apolitical. Don’t forget why “science proceeds one funeral at a time”. His choice of Alex Jones as irrational seems odd. Jones may be, but he’s irrational like a fox- if you’re accomplishing your goals via the actions you plan out, I think that’s a good working definition of rational. Maybe just not great at including all the best variables in your equation. The flames I’ll get from writing this will show that I’m less rational than Alex.

h2odragon 6y ago

Someone can admit there is a spectrum of rationality without valuing either end especially. You can argue that they should, but in the example of Alex Jones; how many who despise him vocally do so because they disagree, and would be happy to see the guy agree with them suddenly, for any reason or none? It'd be validating and "see we were right all along!" for the anti-fans.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Nevermark 6y ago

Several responses here are questioning the value or clarity of the diatribe. I feel like there is deep irony here. Two points that seemed to be clear to me: 1. Listen charitably. Just because you have become a hyper tuned bullshit detector (of bias, irrationality, dishonesty, etc.), don't let that thread starve your ability to hear the clear thinking that comes your way. 2. Don't let down your own efforts. It isn't an excuse to stop striving to be more rational, just because no complex thoughts created by humans will be completely rational. -- A point I would add is: What imperfect rationality we have has enormous value. Let's not get jaded to that just because we are going through a tidal wave of bullshit and corrective wave of bullshit shaming.