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Wait, is there really a conspiracy out there that the reason the government performs so poorly is because people from “the opposite team” are actively joining a

by rhexs 5y ago

Wait, is there really a conspiracy out there that the reason the government performs so poorly is because people from “the opposite team” are actively joining and sabotaging it from within? Absolutely fascinating if so.

JPKab 5y ago
There's absolutely no evidence of this. It's been a popular talking point for a long time, but note how nobody making these assertions can provide a single, specific example of this phenomenon. They will instead resort to talking about groups of people on the other side stating philosophies like this, but you would think that if this was a massive conspiracy, there would be INDIVIDUALS being prosecuted for it. There aren't. Do you think your experience at the DMV is caused by an army of saboteurs in the building? Do you think a secret boss in the back has somehow orchestrated a scheme that causes the employees to be rude and dismissive? Or, just maybe, is it simply the result of organizations which are unable or unwilling to terminate poor performers, creating a dead sea effect where competence is punished with more work and no credit?
- bsder 5y ago
  > Do you think your experience at the DMV is caused by an army of saboteurs in the building? My experience with the DMV in California is mostly positive, thank you very much. Most of the stuff can be done online and I do it there. That, unfortunately, means that when I must go into an actual DMV office, I can't schedule an appointment and I wind up in the line. Yes, wait times can be significant (1-3 hours). However, when I get to the front, the woman (and it was always a woman) always tried to solve my immediate problem somehow. Yes, twice she needed to get her superior who also scratched her head to figure out something. If I needed some extra paperwork that I could get that day, they generally gave me a way to jump the line when I came back. I will tell you that FAR too many people go hit the DMV without having even the vaguest idea of what they need the DMV to do or even attempting to try to corral the paperwork they are going to need. This causes 90+% of the issues at the DMV in that they need to make multiple passes through the system. If you hit the DMV and are just missing one thing, you're gonna get a LOT better service. The workers are only human and they're going to go the extra mile for someone who is putting in the effort more often than someone who isn't. > Or, just maybe, is it simply the result of organizations which are unable or unwilling to terminate poor performers, creating a dead sea effect where competence is punished with more work and no credit? Spoken like someone who has never worked customer service. Why does everybody always seem to think rude and dismissive employees are indicative of employee failures instead of an indication that the job is shit, the employer is treating the employees like crap, and so only shitty people will take the job? Reference: Costco vs Walmart.
  - Kye 5y ago
    >> "Why does everybody always seem to think rude and dismissive employees are indicative of employee failures instead of an indication that the job is shit, the employer is treating the employees like crap, and so only shitty people will take the job?" This is why I always give support people top ratings and try to put a positive spin in the comments even when it's hard. I know lots of people who work retail or front line support. It's pretty much never their fault when things go wrong.
  - JPKab 5y ago
    I’ve worked a lot of low status customer facing jobs, including at Walmart. I also used to build houses as a carpenter for a GC. I’m fully aware of what it’s like to work for dehumanizing employers in dehumanizing industries with bad pay and no benefits. The DMV isn’t one of these, sorry. Making excuses for people who hate their jobs or bosses and take it out on the public is what I’d expect from someone with very little life experience. I’ll notify the public that the DMV is amazing, and the TSA are friendly and professional. Nobody getting fired ever is because they hire only the best. /s
fineIllregister 5y ago
"Together, DeJoy and Wos may claim up to a total $75,815,000 in assets from U.S. Postal Service competitors, according to government records." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-invested-competitors/5550480002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fac... Trump appointed Mick Mulvaney as director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. "Mulvaney in a 2014 interview slammed the CFPB as a “sick, sad” joke; he also co-sponsored legislation that would have eliminated it." https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/27/16704796/cfpb-english-mulvaney-trump-cordray https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/27/16704796/... "President-elect Donald Trump may nominate former Texas Gov. Rick Perry to lead the Department of Energy—the agency Perry wanted to abolish but infamously forgot to name during a 2011 presidential debate." [Perry went on to be Trump's Secretary of Energy, and it can out that prior to taking the job, he didn't even know what the department did.] https://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-gaffe/ https://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-g... Anti-government activists oppose measures to make filing taxes easier so you'll dislike them more: "Norquist has fought California’s ReadyReturn program, as well as the idea of free federal tax preparation." (Norquist is the one who famously said he wanted to shrink government "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub," as quoted in this thread.) https://inthesetimes.com/article/irs-tax-return-filing-difficult-lobbyists-intuit-turbotax-hr-block https://inthesetimes.com/article/irs-tax-return-filing-diffi... Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. So yes, active sabatoge from within is happening, and its not even a secret.
- Kye 5y ago
  I was trying to figure out how to reply, but I think you got it. They do this out in the open. They run on it. It's not a conspiracy when they say it with volume and pride to anyone who will listen. "Government so small you can drown it in a bathtub" was only a slight paraphrase.
  - salawat 5y ago
    The thing that kills me, is there's no seeming paarty for those who turn up their nose at "good enough fpr Government work". You have one that'll do end runs around Constitutional restrictions to aggregate power, another working feverishly to dismantle it... Where are the people who just like providing high quality, ubiqquitously accessible civil services supposed to fit in?

by rhexs 5y ago

JPKab 5y ago

There's absolutely no evidence of this. It's been a popular talking point for a long time, but note how nobody making these assertions can provide a single, specific example of this phenomenon. They will instead resort to talking about groups of people on the other side stating philosophies like this, but you would think that if this was a massive conspiracy, there would be INDIVIDUALS being prosecuted for it. There aren't. Do you think your experience at the DMV is caused by an army of saboteurs in the building? Do you think a secret boss in the back has somehow orchestrated a scheme that causes the employees to be rude and dismissive? Or, just maybe, is it simply the result of organizations which are unable or unwilling to terminate poor performers, creating a dead sea effect where competence is punished with more work and no credit?

bsder 5y ago
> Do you think your experience at the DMV is caused by an army of saboteurs in the building? My experience with the DMV in California is mostly positive, thank you very much. Most of the stuff can be done online and I do it there. That, unfortunately, means that when I must go into an actual DMV office, I can't schedule an appointment and I wind up in the line. Yes, wait times can be significant (1-3 hours). However, when I get to the front, the woman (and it was always a woman) always tried to solve my immediate problem somehow. Yes, twice she needed to get her superior who also scratched her head to figure out something. If I needed some extra paperwork that I could get that day, they generally gave me a way to jump the line when I came back. I will tell you that FAR too many people go hit the DMV without having even the vaguest idea of what they need the DMV to do or even attempting to try to corral the paperwork they are going to need. This causes 90+% of the issues at the DMV in that they need to make multiple passes through the system. If you hit the DMV and are just missing one thing, you're gonna get a LOT better service. The workers are only human and they're going to go the extra mile for someone who is putting in the effort more often than someone who isn't. > Or, just maybe, is it simply the result of organizations which are unable or unwilling to terminate poor performers, creating a dead sea effect where competence is punished with more work and no credit? Spoken like someone who has never worked customer service. Why does everybody always seem to think rude and dismissive employees are indicative of employee failures instead of an indication that the job is shit, the employer is treating the employees like crap, and so only shitty people will take the job? Reference: Costco vs Walmart.
- Kye 5y ago
  >> "Why does everybody always seem to think rude and dismissive employees are indicative of employee failures instead of an indication that the job is shit, the employer is treating the employees like crap, and so only shitty people will take the job?" This is why I always give support people top ratings and try to put a positive spin in the comments even when it's hard. I know lots of people who work retail or front line support. It's pretty much never their fault when things go wrong.
- JPKab 5y ago
  I’ve worked a lot of low status customer facing jobs, including at Walmart. I also used to build houses as a carpenter for a GC. I’m fully aware of what it’s like to work for dehumanizing employers in dehumanizing industries with bad pay and no benefits. The DMV isn’t one of these, sorry. Making excuses for people who hate their jobs or bosses and take it out on the public is what I’d expect from someone with very little life experience. I’ll notify the public that the DMV is amazing, and the TSA are friendly and professional. Nobody getting fired ever is because they hire only the best. /s

fineIllregister 5y ago

"Together, DeJoy and Wos may claim up to a total $75,815,000 in assets from U.S. Postal Service competitors, according to government records." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-invested-competitors/5550480002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fac... Trump appointed Mick Mulvaney as director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. "Mulvaney in a 2014 interview slammed the CFPB as a “sick, sad” joke; he also co-sponsored legislation that would have eliminated it." https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/27/16704796/cfpb-english-mulvaney-trump-cordray https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/27/16704796/... "President-elect Donald Trump may nominate former Texas Gov. Rick Perry to lead the Department of Energy—the agency Perry wanted to abolish but infamously forgot to name during a 2011 presidential debate." [Perry went on to be Trump's Secretary of Energy, and it can out that prior to taking the job, he didn't even know what the department did.] https://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-gaffe/ https://time.com/4598910/rick-perry-department-energy-oops-g... Anti-government activists oppose measures to make filing taxes easier so you'll dislike them more: "Norquist has fought California’s ReadyReturn program, as well as the idea of free federal tax preparation." (Norquist is the one who famously said he wanted to shrink government "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub," as quoted in this thread.) https://inthesetimes.com/article/irs-tax-return-filing-difficult-lobbyists-intuit-turbotax-hr-block https://inthesetimes.com/article/irs-tax-return-filing-diffi... Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. So yes, active sabatoge from within is happening, and its not even a secret.

Kye 5y ago
I was trying to figure out how to reply, but I think you got it. They do this out in the open. They run on it. It's not a conspiracy when they say it with volume and pride to anyone who will listen. "Government so small you can drown it in a bathtub" was only a slight paraphrase.
- salawat 5y ago
  The thing that kills me, is there's no seeming paarty for those who turn up their nose at "good enough fpr Government work". You have one that'll do end runs around Constitutional restrictions to aggregate power, another working feverishly to dismantle it... Where are the people who just like providing high quality, ubiqquitously accessible civil services supposed to fit in?