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I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll tak

I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll take offense. I think they just want to vent. Which is why it doesn't make sense to me because I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.

afavour 5y ago
> I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity I'm not sure if any studies have been done but I'd be interested to know if that's true. My instinct is the opposite: a little bitch and moan can make you feel better about getting something off your chest, especially if the person you're talking to sympathises and can maybe even give you feedback. And let's be honest, this is nothing specific to parenting. I'll bet most of us have complained about some facet of programming recently even though we enjoy it immensely. If we went by the same logic every HN thread would be full of "if that's how you feel then why did you go into programming?"
- garmaine 5y ago
  Asking for advice is not "complaining for the sake of complaining." Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? I assert that it does not. Obviously just making a complaint doesn't fix anything, but more importantly it focuses attention on negative aspects (which we presuppose can't be fixed by merely talking), which reinforces both your view of those negative things and strengthens the negative emotional reaction. I learned this from one of my aunts who is the best parent I have ever seen: tireless, family-focused, and always positive. When I became a parent myself I asked her how she deals with all the stress and she told me it's as simple, and as hard as just focusing on the positives. When you feel frustrated about something you cannot change, then find the positive and focus on that. It sounds dumb, but it works. It makes you happy, which makes for less shouting or stern parenting, which builds better relationships with your kids and spouse, which starts a positive feedback loop. On the other hand I often see parents complaining about their kids every time they meet up with other parents, sometimes when the kids are within earshot too, which just makes them focus on and respond more quickly with negative emotions to those same issues. This starts a negative feedback loop which starts them down into the "ugh, everyday is a chore" lows. Our brains are reinforcement machines, so just complaining by itself does make the situation worse, when there is no expectations of the complaint causing the situation to be resolved. That's what I mean by inherent negative-utility.
  - afavour 5y ago
    I think you're taking a sample set of 1 and applying it to an entire population. > Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? My counter is: yes. Yes it does. It feels good to rant, to get things off my chest. Complaining with others gives me a sense of camaraderie, that we're going through it together. I'm glad that your aunt's tactic works for her, but it doesn't work for everyone. No-one is required to rant if it doesn't work for them!
ryandrake 5y ago
Helpful to keep in mind it might not have been their preference to have a kid. Many pregnancies are unplanned. Delicate subject though for sure.
munificent 5y ago
> Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? This is something I've tried to explain to non-parents many times. One of the fundamental weird asymmetries of parenting is the negatives are visible and the positives are hidden. Visualize someone cleaning a blown-out diaper with shit everywhere and that's pretty obviously a bad experience. Likewise a toddler screaming in their parents' face in a crowded restaurant. Now visualize a parent looking at their kid while their kid sits there reading a book or sleeps in bed. Boring. But what you don't see is what's going on inside that parent. How incredibly proud they feel to have created a little world around their kid where they feel safe and secure. How amazingly gratifying it is to watch their little one learn skills and grow. Just the immense conduit of love flowing between them. You can't really see it, but it's all there and the parents all know its there. > I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity. The opposite is true. There is little cause to talk about positive things because they aren't actionable. If you're happy, you don't want to change anything. Talking about negatives is useful because they represent problems that others may be able to help you solve. Consider a code review: you mostly comment on the code that has something wrong with it.
- garmaine 5y ago
  We're all little feedback loops on the inside though. Talking about something isn't a consequence-free action--it mentally primes you for more of that thing. I mean it sounds hippy-dippy to say "think positive thoughts, man." But there is some truth to it, speaking from neuroscience and personal experience. EDIT: Love the first part of your comment, though I don't have anything to add to it!

afavour 5y ago

> I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity I'm not sure if any studies have been done but I'd be interested to know if that's true. My instinct is the opposite: a little bitch and moan can make you feel better about getting something off your chest, especially if the person you're talking to sympathises and can maybe even give you feedback. And let's be honest, this is nothing specific to parenting. I'll bet most of us have complained about some facet of programming recently even though we enjoy it immensely. If we went by the same logic every HN thread would be full of "if that's how you feel then why did you go into programming?"

garmaine 5y ago
Asking for advice is not "complaining for the sake of complaining." Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? I assert that it does not. Obviously just making a complaint doesn't fix anything, but more importantly it focuses attention on negative aspects (which we presuppose can't be fixed by merely talking), which reinforces both your view of those negative things and strengthens the negative emotional reaction. I learned this from one of my aunts who is the best parent I have ever seen: tireless, family-focused, and always positive. When I became a parent myself I asked her how she deals with all the stress and she told me it's as simple, and as hard as just focusing on the positives. When you feel frustrated about something you cannot change, then find the positive and focus on that. It sounds dumb, but it works. It makes you happy, which makes for less shouting or stern parenting, which builds better relationships with your kids and spouse, which starts a positive feedback loop. On the other hand I often see parents complaining about their kids every time they meet up with other parents, sometimes when the kids are within earshot too, which just makes them focus on and respond more quickly with negative emotions to those same issues. This starts a negative feedback loop which starts them down into the "ugh, everyday is a chore" lows. Our brains are reinforcement machines, so just complaining by itself does make the situation worse, when there is no expectations of the complaint causing the situation to be resolved. That's what I mean by inherent negative-utility.
- afavour 5y ago
  I think you're taking a sample set of 1 and applying it to an entire population. > Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? My counter is: yes. Yes it does. It feels good to rant, to get things off my chest. Complaining with others gives me a sense of camaraderie, that we're going through it together. I'm glad that your aunt's tactic works for her, but it doesn't work for everyone. No-one is required to rant if it doesn't work for them!

ryandrake 5y ago

Helpful to keep in mind it might not have been their preference to have a kid. Many pregnancies are unplanned. Delicate subject though for sure.

munificent 5y ago

> Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? This is something I've tried to explain to non-parents many times. One of the fundamental weird asymmetries of parenting is the negatives are visible and the positives are hidden. Visualize someone cleaning a blown-out diaper with shit everywhere and that's pretty obviously a bad experience. Likewise a toddler screaming in their parents' face in a crowded restaurant. Now visualize a parent looking at their kid while their kid sits there reading a book or sleeps in bed. Boring. But what you don't see is what's going on inside that parent. How incredibly proud they feel to have created a little world around their kid where they feel safe and secure. How amazingly gratifying it is to watch their little one learn skills and grow. Just the immense conduit of love flowing between them. You can't really see it, but it's all there and the parents all know its there. > I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity. The opposite is true. There is little cause to talk about positive things because they aren't actionable. If you're happy, you don't want to change anything. Talking about negatives is useful because they represent problems that others may be able to help you solve. Consider a code review: you mostly comment on the code that has something wrong with it.

garmaine 5y ago
We're all little feedback loops on the inside though. Talking about something isn't a consequence-free action--it mentally primes you for more of that thing. I mean it sounds hippy-dippy to say "think positive thoughts, man." But there is some truth to it, speaking from neuroscience and personal experience. EDIT: Love the first part of your comment, though I don't have anything to add to it!