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I think a lot of that comes from parents often expressing all the negatives of parenthood rather than the positives. Even the ones who love spending time with

I think a lot of that comes from parents often expressing all the negatives of parenthood rather than the positives. Even the ones who love spending time with their kids, in my experience, talk more about how much attention the kids need, taking them to school, the diaper changes, the crying, and so on. This isn't to say that all parents are like this; I've met some really passionate parents, and my parents relished raising me. But in interpersonal discussions as well as popular media, parenthood is usually portrayed as a chore and even a "whoopsie".

jakear 6y ago
I think that’s generally true of all descriptions of activities — we simply prefer to list the bad, as commiserating is more socially acceptable than “bragging” about how nice something is. See also: chewing fat over how work sucks rather than how happy you are to be working on interesting stuff, “the ol ball and chain” not how nice it is to have stable relationship, “fucking landlords taking all my money” not convenience of having someone else pay for repairs and assuming risk, etc.
- Der_Einzige 6y ago
  This is why "critical thinking" is overrated. Becoming good at critical thinking means that you become good at critique - the process of describing the flaws of something. This is the issue with the modern left in america. They do a great job of highlighting injustice (through teaching many critical thinking skills as part of "wokism") but then the solutions given are so poorly articulated that they're laughed out of the room. Most people know they are exploited - few know how to escape it. I'd rather not even know I'm exploited if I have no way out (you know, ignorance is bliss) You highlighted this with our own culture in small acts - but it's just as apparent with our body politic as well...
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    Critical thinking is overrated in the sense that it's hard to distinguish from using superficially skeptical language. Being understanding epistemology and being flexible in thinking is more useful than being a curmudgeon who assumes anything that isn't intuitive is bullshit.
    - _carbyau_ 6y ago
      :-) OTOH, being old enough now to have seen multiple variations of quite a few products, I am amazed at how "designers" of products manage to get basic shit wrong. I mean, how hard is it to just look at your competition and see what they do right. ...and so I likely come across as a curmudgeon calling poorly designed things bullshit as I express my disappointment in a society that hasn't figured out hoverboards yet...
garmaine 6y ago
I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll take offense. I think they just want to vent. Which is why it doesn't make sense to me because I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.
- afavour 6y ago
  > I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity I'm not sure if any studies have been done but I'd be interested to know if that's true. My instinct is the opposite: a little bitch and moan can make you feel better about getting something off your chest, especially if the person you're talking to sympathises and can maybe even give you feedback. And let's be honest, this is nothing specific to parenting. I'll bet most of us have complained about some facet of programming recently even though we enjoy it immensely. If we went by the same logic every HN thread would be full of "if that's how you feel then why did you go into programming?"
  - garmaine 6y ago
    Asking for advice is not "complaining for the sake of complaining." Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? I assert that it does not. Obviously just making a complaint doesn't fix anything, but more importantly it focuses attention on negative aspects (which we presuppose can't be fixed by merely talking), which reinforces both your view of those negative things and strengthens the negative emotional reaction. I learned this from one of my aunts who is the best parent I have ever seen: tireless, family-focused, and always positive. When I became a parent myself I asked her how she deals with all the stress and she told me it's as simple, and as hard as just focusing on the positives. When you feel frustrated about something you cannot change, then find the positive and focus on that. It sounds dumb, but it works. It makes you happy, which makes for less shouting or stern parenting, which builds better relationships with your kids and spouse, which starts a positive feedback loop. On the other hand I often see parents complaining about their kids every time they meet up with other parents, sometimes when the kids are within earshot too, which just makes them focus on and respond more quickly with negative emotions to those same issues. This starts a negative feedback loop which starts them down into the "ugh, everyday is a chore" lows. Our brains are reinforcement machines, so just complaining by itself does make the situation worse, when there is no expectations of the complaint causing the situation to be resolved. That's what I mean by inherent negative-utility.
toomuchredbull 6y ago
I was visiting my wife's family in Fiji and it was amazing how much more attention my boy, a toddler got there than in North America. Females of all ages from like 12-100 would dote on him, ask to hold him and talk to him. In North America women treat him like he's diseased whereas my dog gets lots of attention. Weird. There really is a cultural bias against kids here.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kbelder 6y ago
  Upvoted, but I wanted to clarify that I think that's regional in the US.
- xen2xen1 6y ago
  I live in the American Midwest. The young women who want kids stay here and (usually) find a man and have kids. The ones who don't want kids badly and or want careers move away much more often. I'm wagering they end up near you. When I had a baby or a toddler they would get oohs and ahs, everywhere I went. That is quite normal here. Your story sounds much like self-selection to me seeing it from the other end.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > In North America women treat him like he's diseased Where are you living? My experience in the US has been basically what you described in Fiji, except not limited to women. Virtually everyone around here is happy and excited to see kids. Babies especially. Taking my <1 year old for walks was guaranteed to produce smiles and waves from everyone we passed. If I was living somewhere where people outwardly loathed young children, I'd probably want to move. What you're describing isn't normal.
jgon 6y ago
I think a large part of it is that the good things are so hard to describe and the bad things are pretty universally understood. Trying to describe the way time comes to a complete stop when your infant child gazes into your eyes and you look back and you feel a connection that quite literally can't be put into words, makes it really hard to talk to people about it. On the other hand almost everyone can imagine what it would be like to have to deal with that same infant having an explosive bowel movement that exceeds the capacity of their diaper to contain it. And so, when pressed to talk about something related to child rearing people fall back on the sleepless nights (we've all been tired), the crying, the dirty diapers, etc. Because talking about the good feels like trying to describe falling in love to someone who's never done that before. With that said, I generally try to catch myself these days when I am unfairly weighing one side of the equation and express what an absolute blessing having kids has been and how much richer they've made my life. I think many (most) people who have kids feel the same.

jakear 6y ago

I think that’s generally true of all descriptions of activities — we simply prefer to list the bad, as commiserating is more socially acceptable than “bragging” about how nice something is. See also: chewing fat over how work sucks rather than how happy you are to be working on interesting stuff, “the ol ball and chain” not how nice it is to have stable relationship, “fucking landlords taking all my money” not convenience of having someone else pay for repairs and assuming risk, etc.

Der_Einzige 6y ago
This is why "critical thinking" is overrated. Becoming good at critical thinking means that you become good at critique - the process of describing the flaws of something. This is the issue with the modern left in america. They do a great job of highlighting injustice (through teaching many critical thinking skills as part of "wokism") but then the solutions given are so poorly articulated that they're laughed out of the room. Most people know they are exploited - few know how to escape it. I'd rather not even know I'm exploited if I have no way out (you know, ignorance is bliss) You highlighted this with our own culture in small acts - but it's just as apparent with our body politic as well...
- ravenstine 6y ago
  Critical thinking is overrated in the sense that it's hard to distinguish from using superficially skeptical language. Being understanding epistemology and being flexible in thinking is more useful than being a curmudgeon who assumes anything that isn't intuitive is bullshit.
  - _carbyau_ 6y ago
    :-) OTOH, being old enough now to have seen multiple variations of quite a few products, I am amazed at how "designers" of products manage to get basic shit wrong. I mean, how hard is it to just look at your competition and see what they do right. ...and so I likely come across as a curmudgeon calling poorly designed things bullshit as I express my disappointment in a society that hasn't figured out hoverboards yet...

garmaine 6y ago

I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll take offense. I think they just want to vent. Which is why it doesn't make sense to me because I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.

afavour 6y ago
> I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity I'm not sure if any studies have been done but I'd be interested to know if that's true. My instinct is the opposite: a little bitch and moan can make you feel better about getting something off your chest, especially if the person you're talking to sympathises and can maybe even give you feedback. And let's be honest, this is nothing specific to parenting. I'll bet most of us have complained about some facet of programming recently even though we enjoy it immensely. If we went by the same logic every HN thread would be full of "if that's how you feel then why did you go into programming?"
- garmaine 6y ago
  Asking for advice is not "complaining for the sake of complaining." Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? I assert that it does not. Obviously just making a complaint doesn't fix anything, but more importantly it focuses attention on negative aspects (which we presuppose can't be fixed by merely talking), which reinforces both your view of those negative things and strengthens the negative emotional reaction. I learned this from one of my aunts who is the best parent I have ever seen: tireless, family-focused, and always positive. When I became a parent myself I asked her how she deals with all the stress and she told me it's as simple, and as hard as just focusing on the positives. When you feel frustrated about something you cannot change, then find the positive and focus on that. It sounds dumb, but it works. It makes you happy, which makes for less shouting or stern parenting, which builds better relationships with your kids and spouse, which starts a positive feedback loop. On the other hand I often see parents complaining about their kids every time they meet up with other parents, sometimes when the kids are within earshot too, which just makes them focus on and respond more quickly with negative emotions to those same issues. This starts a negative feedback loop which starts them down into the "ugh, everyday is a chore" lows. Our brains are reinforcement machines, so just complaining by itself does make the situation worse, when there is no expectations of the complaint causing the situation to be resolved. That's what I mean by inherent negative-utility.

toomuchredbull 6y ago

I was visiting my wife's family in Fiji and it was amazing how much more attention my boy, a toddler got there than in North America. Females of all ages from like 12-100 would dote on him, ask to hold him and talk to him. In North America women treat him like he's diseased whereas my dog gets lots of attention. Weird. There really is a cultural bias against kids here.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kbelder 6y ago
Upvoted, but I wanted to clarify that I think that's regional in the US.
xen2xen1 6y ago
I live in the American Midwest. The young women who want kids stay here and (usually) find a man and have kids. The ones who don't want kids badly and or want careers move away much more often. I'm wagering they end up near you. When I had a baby or a toddler they would get oohs and ahs, everywhere I went. That is quite normal here. Your story sounds much like self-selection to me seeing it from the other end.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> In North America women treat him like he's diseased Where are you living? My experience in the US has been basically what you described in Fiji, except not limited to women. Virtually everyone around here is happy and excited to see kids. Babies especially. Taking my <1 year old for walks was guaranteed to produce smiles and waves from everyone we passed. If I was living somewhere where people outwardly loathed young children, I'd probably want to move. What you're describing isn't normal.

jgon 6y ago

I think a large part of it is that the good things are so hard to describe and the bad things are pretty universally understood. Trying to describe the way time comes to a complete stop when your infant child gazes into your eyes and you look back and you feel a connection that quite literally can't be put into words, makes it really hard to talk to people about it. On the other hand almost everyone can imagine what it would be like to have to deal with that same infant having an explosive bowel movement that exceeds the capacity of their diaper to contain it. And so, when pressed to talk about something related to child rearing people fall back on the sleepless nights (we've all been tired), the crying, the dirty diapers, etc. Because talking about the good feels like trying to describe falling in love to someone who's never done that before. With that said, I generally try to catch myself these days when I am unfairly weighing one side of the equation and express what an absolute blessing having kids has been and how much richer they've made my life. I think many (most) people who have kids feel the same.