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Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a

Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a disadvantage in the workplace if they become parents. Men, not so much, and largely because of this imbalance, even progressive couples fall into this paradigm. In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when they return to the workplace [0]. This means that not only are parents given the opportunity to share actual parenting, but also that their children wind up with better care by their actual parents for the vital early months of their existence. It’s time the US adopted such protections and embraced them culturally. [0] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/working-hours-holiday-leave/parental-leave/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/workin...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
djoldman 5y ago
I upvoted this comment. I think there are issues here though. > you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I'm not sure what you mean by this. If ones chosen career consumes a lot of time, the time comes from somewhere regardless of your gender. > In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when they return to the workplace [0]. This means that not only are parents given the opportunity to share actual parenting, but also that their children wind up with better care by their actual parents for the vital early months of their existence. Indeed, and this is reflective of many things. One of which is the idea that society should encourage and/or protect the decision to have progeny beyond the gender imbalance inherent in the fact that men as a sex cannot bear children. It's possibly a harder sell in the US because of the immense value placed on individual liberty.
nazgulnarsil 5y ago
'tradeoffs shouldn't exist'
- mcguire 5y ago
  Artificially created trade-offs are harmful.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I actually disagree, and that's the reason I loved this article so much: it acknowledges that, at the upper end, you do have to choose. Of course, everyone should be able to have a career and also have children, and I agree that there are a lot of things society can do to make this an easier tradeoff. However, should everyone be able to be the CEO of a high growth startup (if that's your chosen career), and also have kids? Perhaps some people can manage that, but without a good support system in place (which usually means a stay-at-home spouse or at least enough for a nanny) one or the other usually suffers. Fundamentally, life is about choices. Time is finite, so you can either spend some specific hour going over sales projections, or you can spend it with your kids - you can't do both. Even if the government had better leave policies, it's not like they can enforce you to take it. If you want to be the CEO of a startup, and you choose to spend your hour taking care of your kids, there is a good chance some other CEO is reviewing their sales projections. This is just the reality of living in a competitive economy.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Well, if you are the CEO of a high growth start up, you really can do what the wealthy have always done: go with the nanny. Here's a question for you: how many innovations (or whatever else you expect to benefit society from a high-growth startup or whatever) are we missing because people cannot do both? The weird thing about competitive environments is that above some level, winners and losers seem to be chosen based on everything except the competitive skill.
- alex_young 5y ago
  I'm not entirely sure we disagree on the point I was attempting to make. I didn't say that one should never be allowed to choose between being the CEO or having children at the same time, but I do think it's a societal failure if the choice is between having a career at all and having children, especially if that's a gendered ultimatum. I may actually disagree with you on the CEO point in another way however - Who knows, but I suspect some CEOs manage to spend time with their kids and run a successful company. As you say there are tradeoffs in life, and some people choose to have a family and others choose to take up fly fishing or something. It doesn't seem like this necessarily precludes anyone from starting a successful company. Some may even find that parenting gives them the insight they need to be successful in business.
stefan_ 5y ago
It's not just time off, it's just straight up working time. Somehow we went from half the eligible work force (women) dropping out before 30 to everyone being expected to work full time until 65, with no reduction in full time whatsoever. Even now with many people working bullshit jobs going part time is career death.
mcguire 5y ago
Two essentially unrelated comments about what you said: In the US, the incentives which put women at a disadvantage in the workplace date from before there were many women in the workplace. Weirdly, we have doubled-down on them after women entered the workforce in large numbers, particularly in the tech industry. This probably means something. Secondly, the site you link to says, "Both parents are entitled to at least 4 months leave each." Which is my issue with parental leave: I see it as a red herring. I mean, what happens in the other, roughly, 17 years and 8 months? (Yes, I know the EU is better in that regard, too, but focusing at all on parental leave rather than general work-life balance seems a little silly.)
globular-toast 5y ago
> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. Having children is a career. Of course you have to choose which career to take.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

djoldman 5y ago

I upvoted this comment. I think there are issues here though. > you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I'm not sure what you mean by this. If ones chosen career consumes a lot of time, the time comes from somewhere regardless of your gender. > In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when they return to the workplace [0]. This means that not only are parents given the opportunity to share actual parenting, but also that their children wind up with better care by their actual parents for the vital early months of their existence. Indeed, and this is reflective of many things. One of which is the idea that society should encourage and/or protect the decision to have progeny beyond the gender imbalance inherent in the fact that men as a sex cannot bear children. It's possibly a harder sell in the US because of the immense value placed on individual liberty.

nazgulnarsil 5y ago

'tradeoffs shouldn't exist'

mcguire 5y ago
Artificially created trade-offs are harmful.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. I actually disagree, and that's the reason I loved this article so much: it acknowledges that, at the upper end, you do have to choose. Of course, everyone should be able to have a career and also have children, and I agree that there are a lot of things society can do to make this an easier tradeoff. However, should everyone be able to be the CEO of a high growth startup (if that's your chosen career), and also have kids? Perhaps some people can manage that, but without a good support system in place (which usually means a stay-at-home spouse or at least enough for a nanny) one or the other usually suffers. Fundamentally, life is about choices. Time is finite, so you can either spend some specific hour going over sales projections, or you can spend it with your kids - you can't do both. Even if the government had better leave policies, it's not like they can enforce you to take it. If you want to be the CEO of a startup, and you choose to spend your hour taking care of your kids, there is a good chance some other CEO is reviewing their sales projections. This is just the reality of living in a competitive economy.

mcguire 5y ago
Well, if you are the CEO of a high growth start up, you really can do what the wealthy have always done: go with the nanny. Here's a question for you: how many innovations (or whatever else you expect to benefit society from a high-growth startup or whatever) are we missing because people cannot do both? The weird thing about competitive environments is that above some level, winners and losers seem to be chosen based on everything except the competitive skill.
alex_young 5y ago
I'm not entirely sure we disagree on the point I was attempting to make. I didn't say that one should never be allowed to choose between being the CEO or having children at the same time, but I do think it's a societal failure if the choice is between having a career at all and having children, especially if that's a gendered ultimatum. I may actually disagree with you on the CEO point in another way however - Who knows, but I suspect some CEOs manage to spend time with their kids and run a successful company. As you say there are tradeoffs in life, and some people choose to have a family and others choose to take up fly fishing or something. It doesn't seem like this necessarily precludes anyone from starting a successful company. Some may even find that parenting gives them the insight they need to be successful in business.

stefan_ 5y ago

It's not just time off, it's just straight up working time. Somehow we went from half the eligible work force (women) dropping out before 30 to everyone being expected to work full time until 65, with no reduction in full time whatsoever. Even now with many people working bullshit jobs going part time is career death.

mcguire 5y ago

Two essentially unrelated comments about what you said: In the US, the incentives which put women at a disadvantage in the workplace date from before there were many women in the workplace. Weirdly, we have doubled-down on them after women entered the workforce in large numbers, particularly in the tech industry. This probably means something. Secondly, the site you link to says, "Both parents are entitled to at least 4 months leave each." Which is my issue with parental leave: I see it as a red herring. I mean, what happens in the other, roughly, 17 years and 8 months? (Yes, I know the EU is better in that regard, too, but focusing at all on parental leave rather than general work-life balance seems a little silly.)

globular-toast 5y ago

> Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. Having children is a career. Of course you have to choose which career to take.