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I am of the opinion that resolving trauma that causes a person to "zone out" and sleep walk through life can have equivalent effect to psychedelics. I've done b

I am of the opinion that resolving trauma that causes a person to "zone out" and sleep walk through life can have equivalent effect to psychedelics. I've done both, so I can compare them. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Dialectic Behavioral Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy and Wisemind done with a knowledgeable therapist can produce excellent results. Meditation and mindfulness (pay attention to what you pay attention to) are also metacognition techniques that produce results. These tools are in my bag of what I call my debuggers for removing automatic thoughts that produce negative emotions, or what ancient Hindus call a "vasana." A vasana can also be a memory of a good feeling, which drives behavior for more, which is a problem for gamblers for example. If you yearn for adventure in South America or like the idea of doing mind altering drugs, by all means do it, but just know it is not the only way. Ram Dass called psychedelics training wheels and said you don't need them after awhile. The point is to break out of the box, but once out, you don't need to keep doing it.

prox 6y ago
I knew a few people who did it [ayahuasca], first time(s) seemed ok and very insightful, but after that, it seemed to become more like a need for a trip, or an escape. I only seen one good result with someone who used it a few times in a 1:1 therapy setting.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tartoran 6y ago
  LSD and ayahuasca have a somewhat low potential for abuse, each trip is so emotionally exhausting, at least for me, and though the experience is enriching I would not want to repeat it anytime soon. There is enough to be processed for a while. Granted, I don't think I have any trauma or at least I am not aware of any. Last time I did LSD feels like yesterday but it was around 10 years ago. But like with everything, people who in general abuse things can abuse these two as much as they abuse food, sweets and so on.
  - defterGoose 6y ago
    Same thing with mushrooms. You start to come down and then all you want to do is sleep for days. IMHO, they have almost zero potential for abuse.
tempsy 6y ago
Not sure if "zone out" is the right word - that is more akin to disassociation which is exactly what you should not do with traumatic memories eg bury them. The promise of psychedelics is to do the opposite and help you resurface and process traumatic memories.
- benburleson 6y ago
  I think the parent comment is in agreement. They are saying there are many ways to resolve those traumatic memories that the person is living with, buried and inhibiting a better life.
  - tempsy 6y ago
    OP is equating zoning out with doing psychedelics. I completely disagree with that. Psychedelics don't numb and distract liked drinking alcohol. They do pretty much the exact opposite.
    - arthurbrown 6y ago
      Reread OP. This is not what they are trying to convey. They are saying that taking psychedelics can provide a similar breakthrough like awakening after resolving trauma.
      - tempsy 6y ago
        which is why I said "zone out" was bad phrasing...
        okareaman 6y ago
        I guess it's California surfer slang for being spaced out and not really present
        justinpowers 6y ago
        OP is saying that it is the trauma that causes the person to “zone out and sleep walk through life”, not the resolution. He’s comparing psychedelics to any more direct resolution of the trauma itself in that they both wake the person up. In other words, if you’re zoning out you have two choices: take psychedelics or just fix the trauma that is causing the zoning out in the first place. A dozen hyphens might help: “...resolving trauma-that-causes-a-person-to-zone-out-and-sleep-walk-through-life can have equivalent effects to psychedelics.”
matthoiland 6y ago
Along with the training wheels analogy, Ram Dass also said, (badly paraphrased), "To remove a thorn from your foot, you use another thorn – then you throw them both away, or you'll likely get pricked again."
- mc32 6y ago
  That sounds like the Hegelian wound.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"The point is to break out of the box, but once out, you don't need to keep doing it." Well, it is easy to get into a box again real quick, so there is some logic to keep doing it. But I really don't like the idea of needing a drug to be free, so yes, there are other ways. But if some have a working system with regular Ayuhasca or some other drug, why not. It used to be a community ritual as far as I know and I can really see benefits in doing so, if done right. I did such a Ayuhasca ceremony 14 years ago in some australian jungle (including the traditional preparation of the drug) and it just was the right time and place and I would not have mind to have such a experience in a group regulary. But I really don't feel it to go to one of those Ayuhasca centers that are now also around europe for example. And Ayuhasca is also no magic eye opener. The last person I spoke to, who did such a thing, was overall quite happy with it - but his main takeaway was a feeling of righteousness in his personal belive system - and since his believes were very spaced out - it was a reason for me to still pass on that. I don't want my believe system to reimbursed. I want to get new insights and reflexion of what I am doing and let go of things I don't need anymore.
- yosito 6y ago
  > Well, it is easy to get into a box again real quick, so there is some logic to keep doing it. Once you've been out of the box, it's easier to get yourself out of it the next time.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Or harder, when you assume yourself to be enlightened after the first time, with no further work required. I got to know too many of such people.
    - yosito 6y ago
      Fair enough. For me, self awareness is a prerequisite for responsible consumption of any substance that alters one's mental state. But it's not safe to assume that everyone practices self awareness. And you're right, a lot of people do not.
- 6y ago
florinutz 6y ago
I couldn't overdo psychedelics even if I wanted to

prox 6y ago

I knew a few people who did it [ayahuasca], first time(s) seemed ok and very insightful, but after that, it seemed to become more like a need for a trip, or an escape. I only seen one good result with someone who used it a few times in a 1:1 therapy setting.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tartoran 6y ago
LSD and ayahuasca have a somewhat low potential for abuse, each trip is so emotionally exhausting, at least for me, and though the experience is enriching I would not want to repeat it anytime soon. There is enough to be processed for a while. Granted, I don't think I have any trauma or at least I am not aware of any. Last time I did LSD feels like yesterday but it was around 10 years ago. But like with everything, people who in general abuse things can abuse these two as much as they abuse food, sweets and so on.
- defterGoose 6y ago
  Same thing with mushrooms. You start to come down and then all you want to do is sleep for days. IMHO, they have almost zero potential for abuse.

tempsy 6y ago

Not sure if "zone out" is the right word - that is more akin to disassociation which is exactly what you should not do with traumatic memories eg bury them. The promise of psychedelics is to do the opposite and help you resurface and process traumatic memories.

benburleson 6y ago
I think the parent comment is in agreement. They are saying there are many ways to resolve those traumatic memories that the person is living with, buried and inhibiting a better life.
- tempsy 6y ago
  OP is equating zoning out with doing psychedelics. I completely disagree with that. Psychedelics don't numb and distract liked drinking alcohol. They do pretty much the exact opposite.
  - arthurbrown 6y ago
    Reread OP. This is not what they are trying to convey. They are saying that taking psychedelics can provide a similar breakthrough like awakening after resolving trauma.
    - tempsy 6y ago
      which is why I said "zone out" was bad phrasing...
      - okareaman 6y ago
        I guess it's California surfer slang for being spaced out and not really present
      - justinpowers 6y ago
        OP is saying that it is the trauma that causes the person to “zone out and sleep walk through life”, not the resolution. He’s comparing psychedelics to any more direct resolution of the trauma itself in that they both wake the person up. In other words, if you’re zoning out you have two choices: take psychedelics or just fix the trauma that is causing the zoning out in the first place. A dozen hyphens might help: “...resolving trauma-that-causes-a-person-to-zone-out-and-sleep-walk-through-life can have equivalent effects to psychedelics.”

matthoiland 6y ago

Along with the training wheels analogy, Ram Dass also said, (badly paraphrased), "To remove a thorn from your foot, you use another thorn – then you throw them both away, or you'll likely get pricked again."

mc32 6y ago
That sounds like the Hegelian wound.

hutzlibu 6y ago

"The point is to break out of the box, but once out, you don't need to keep doing it." Well, it is easy to get into a box again real quick, so there is some logic to keep doing it. But I really don't like the idea of needing a drug to be free, so yes, there are other ways. But if some have a working system with regular Ayuhasca or some other drug, why not. It used to be a community ritual as far as I know and I can really see benefits in doing so, if done right. I did such a Ayuhasca ceremony 14 years ago in some australian jungle (including the traditional preparation of the drug) and it just was the right time and place and I would not have mind to have such a experience in a group regulary. But I really don't feel it to go to one of those Ayuhasca centers that are now also around europe for example. And Ayuhasca is also no magic eye opener. The last person I spoke to, who did such a thing, was overall quite happy with it - but his main takeaway was a feeling of righteousness in his personal belive system - and since his believes were very spaced out - it was a reason for me to still pass on that. I don't want my believe system to reimbursed. I want to get new insights and reflexion of what I am doing and let go of things I don't need anymore.

yosito 6y ago
> Well, it is easy to get into a box again real quick, so there is some logic to keep doing it. Once you've been out of the box, it's easier to get yourself out of it the next time.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Or harder, when you assume yourself to be enlightened after the first time, with no further work required. I got to know too many of such people.
  - yosito 6y ago
    Fair enough. For me, self awareness is a prerequisite for responsible consumption of any substance that alters one's mental state. But it's not safe to assume that everyone practices self awareness. And you're right, a lot of people do not.
6y ago

florinutz 6y ago

I couldn't overdo psychedelics even if I wanted to