7 ms·

Apple Is an Acceptable Evil

13 points by tigroferoce 5y ago

teddyh 5y ago
> My Mac just works. Since years. Day after day, OS update after OS update it just works. Since very many other people have vastly different experiences, we can conclude that the author is either very lucky, or that the author does encounter problems, but forget them immediately or don’t consider them “problems”. I.e. that the author has confirmation bias.
- spamalot159 5y ago
  I think in comparison to Windows or Linux this could be true on the aggregate. It seems like Apple owning the whole hardware/software stack makes the product marginally more reliable. My experience mostly mirrored the author.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    In theory, this is reasonable, but on the other hand, hardware companies are almost universally bad at making software, and this should also apply to Apple, which would be an opposite force. So theory alone is no help here.
    - EForEndeavour 5y ago
      Who's to say whether Apple falls into the "almost" part of "almost universally bad at making software"? Why is it reasonable to apply industry-wide averages to a company as exceptional as Apple?
    - theranger 5y ago
      Well, in your first reply you state boldly that > Since very many other people have vastly different experiences, we can conclude that the author is either very lucky, or that the author does encounter problems, but forget them immediately or don’t consider them “problems”. I.e. that the author has confirmation bias. Now you say that "hardware companies are almost universally bad at making software, and this should also apply to Apple". Who's biased now? Considering my experience with myriad of Apple devices, Android, Linux, Windows and whatever tens and tens of gadgets I owned, I could oppose that although most hardware companies are supposed to be bad at making software, this seems not influencing Apple. We are all biased to some extent and this should come as no surprise.
- bioinformatics 5y ago
  I have 4-5 Macs now, access to tens more and had many in the past and just one broke down or had actual OS problems. YMMV.
fartcannon 5y ago
This doesnt really meet the intellextual curiosity requirement, does it? It's just a list of low effort flame war inducing things someone likes about Macs?
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Also no offense to the author, I feel the same way about my OS of choice!
  - tigroferoce 5y ago
    Author here. No offence taken at all, everyone is comfortable with their particular stack and it should be allowed to choose it. In my past I have suffered some employer that forced me to use a particular stack and I hated it. I just didn't feel at home. The main point I wanted to express is that we are (more and more) forced to choose some evil that we MUST accept because there are no alternatives or because alternatives are even worse. And this is sad.
K0nserv 5y ago
I wrote a Twitter thread[0] on this topic in response to Alex Russell's recent blog post on how Safari on iOS limits the web[1]. My point is: yes it's problematic that Apple prevents any browser diversity on iOS(by not allowing other browser engines than Webkit), however their behaviour is also keeping chromium's dominance in check. Neither of these two things are good, but I think I prefer the acceptable evil of Apple. 0: https://twitter.com/K0nserv/status/1388814683709362176 https://twitter.com/K0nserv/status/1388814683709362176 1: https://infrequently.org/2021/04/progress-delayed/ https://infrequently.org/2021/04/progress-delayed/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lwhi 5y ago
The author of this post doesn't see this as a problem and is willing to accept drawbacks for a simple life; I think it's a useful point because it sums up the attitude of the public at large. There are quite specific systemic problems brought upon society by the indomitable ascent of large multinational corporations and corporate capitalism. One of the most egregious, is the reduction of power a single person has in relation to the larger corporate structures they become reliant upon. This about some of the arguments used against Apple today .. almost all relate to the concentration of power this single, unelected legal entity has. This is a problem for society now. Without something happening to change the rise of corporate capitalism, the problems posed will only become more difficult to solve. Apple is not the problem; it actually just evidence that should be used to solve it. A symptom of a capitalism system that needs to be improved for the good of society. It's definitely not an acceptable evil, when examined through this lens.
taylodl 5y ago
The most important lesson I learned in my university course on argumentation and debate is most of us have the same values, we simply prioritize them differently - and that's where most arguments stem from. Apple provides convenience and simplicity at the price of freedom. If those align with your value priorities then you're going to like Apple. It's really as simple as that. The fact that different people have different value priorities means there will always be multiple competitors filling those different market segments. That's why I see this Apple/Android/Linux/Windows "debate" as silly. Different people are going to make different choices based off their preferences and priorities. There's no sense in being a fan boi and defending your personal choice at all costs.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  >price of freedom Freedom of what? Apple is not really restricting anything, it simply doesn't provide alternative ways to do stuff and I am yet to hear for someone getting in trouble for finding their way in their iDevice. As for the running apps, you don't even need to hack or reverse engineer anything. You can compile, sign, load and run any code you want on even the most walled iDevice, iPhone.
  - JoeyBananas 5y ago
    > As for the running apps, you don't even need to hack or reverse engineer anything. You can compile, sign, load and run any code you want on even the most walled iDevice, iPhone. That's simply not true. For example, you're not allowed to install a different OS on an iPhone. You're always restricted to using the APIs that apple exposes to developers.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      You are allowed to do whatever you want. Apple not providing the tools to do it is not the same as forbidding it. BTW, without taking the reverse engineering path, you can install any software on iOS by getting a developer account. The code signing happens locally, Apple wouldn't know if you are installing a torrent client or anything else. Yes it's paid if you like having the app all the time, but the phone itself is also paid. Simply incorporate that into the cost of ownership price, if it's too expensive then don't use it. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

13 points by tigroferoce 5y ago

> My Mac just works. Since years. Day after day, OS update after OS update it just works. Since very many other people have vastly different experiences, we can conclude that the author is either very lucky, or that the author does encounter problems, but forget them immediately or don’t consider them “problems”. I.e. that the author has confirmation bias.

spamalot159 5y ago
I think in comparison to Windows or Linux this could be true on the aggregate. It seems like Apple owning the whole hardware/software stack makes the product marginally more reliable. My experience mostly mirrored the author.
- teddyh 5y ago
  In theory, this is reasonable, but on the other hand, hardware companies are almost universally bad at making software, and this should also apply to Apple, which would be an opposite force. So theory alone is no help here.
  - EForEndeavour 5y ago
    Who's to say whether Apple falls into the "almost" part of "almost universally bad at making software"? Why is it reasonable to apply industry-wide averages to a company as exceptional as Apple?
  - theranger 5y ago
    Well, in your first reply you state boldly that > Since very many other people have vastly different experiences, we can conclude that the author is either very lucky, or that the author does encounter problems, but forget them immediately or don’t consider them “problems”. I.e. that the author has confirmation bias. Now you say that "hardware companies are almost universally bad at making software, and this should also apply to Apple". Who's biased now? Considering my experience with myriad of Apple devices, Android, Linux, Windows and whatever tens and tens of gadgets I owned, I could oppose that although most hardware companies are supposed to be bad at making software, this seems not influencing Apple. We are all biased to some extent and this should come as no surprise.
bioinformatics 5y ago
I have 4-5 Macs now, access to tens more and had many in the past and just one broke down or had actual OS problems. YMMV.

fartcannon 5y ago

This doesnt really meet the intellextual curiosity requirement, does it? It's just a list of low effort flame war inducing things someone likes about Macs?

fartcannon 5y ago
Also no offense to the author, I feel the same way about my OS of choice!
- tigroferoce 5y ago
  Author here. No offence taken at all, everyone is comfortable with their particular stack and it should be allowed to choose it. In my past I have suffered some employer that forced me to use a particular stack and I hated it. I just didn't feel at home. The main point I wanted to express is that we are (more and more) forced to choose some evil that we MUST accept because there are no alternatives or because alternatives are even worse. And this is sad.

K0nserv 5y ago

I wrote a Twitter thread[0] on this topic in response to Alex Russell's recent blog post on how Safari on iOS limits the web[1]. My point is: yes it's problematic that Apple prevents any browser diversity on iOS(by not allowing other browser engines than Webkit), however their behaviour is also keeping chromium's dominance in check. Neither of these two things are good, but I think I prefer the acceptable evil of Apple. 0: https://twitter.com/K0nserv/status/1388814683709362176 https://twitter.com/K0nserv/status/1388814683709362176 1: https://infrequently.org/2021/04/progress-delayed/ https://infrequently.org/2021/04/progress-delayed/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lwhi 5y ago

The author of this post doesn't see this as a problem and is willing to accept drawbacks for a simple life; I think it's a useful point because it sums up the attitude of the public at large. There are quite specific systemic problems brought upon society by the indomitable ascent of large multinational corporations and corporate capitalism. One of the most egregious, is the reduction of power a single person has in relation to the larger corporate structures they become reliant upon. This about some of the arguments used against Apple today .. almost all relate to the concentration of power this single, unelected legal entity has. This is a problem for society now. Without something happening to change the rise of corporate capitalism, the problems posed will only become more difficult to solve. Apple is not the problem; it actually just evidence that should be used to solve it. A symptom of a capitalism system that needs to be improved for the good of society. It's definitely not an acceptable evil, when examined through this lens.

taylodl 5y ago

The most important lesson I learned in my university course on argumentation and debate is most of us have the same values, we simply prioritize them differently - and that's where most arguments stem from. Apple provides convenience and simplicity at the price of freedom. If those align with your value priorities then you're going to like Apple. It's really as simple as that. The fact that different people have different value priorities means there will always be multiple competitors filling those different market segments. That's why I see this Apple/Android/Linux/Windows "debate" as silly. Different people are going to make different choices based off their preferences and priorities. There's no sense in being a fan boi and defending your personal choice at all costs.

mrtksn 5y ago
>price of freedom Freedom of what? Apple is not really restricting anything, it simply doesn't provide alternative ways to do stuff and I am yet to hear for someone getting in trouble for finding their way in their iDevice. As for the running apps, you don't even need to hack or reverse engineer anything. You can compile, sign, load and run any code you want on even the most walled iDevice, iPhone.
- JoeyBananas 5y ago
  > As for the running apps, you don't even need to hack or reverse engineer anything. You can compile, sign, load and run any code you want on even the most walled iDevice, iPhone. That's simply not true. For example, you're not allowed to install a different OS on an iPhone. You're always restricted to using the APIs that apple exposes to developers.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    You are allowed to do whatever you want. Apple not providing the tools to do it is not the same as forbidding it. BTW, without taking the reverse engineering path, you can install any software on iOS by getting a developer account. The code signing happens locally, Apple wouldn't know if you are installing a torrent client or anything else. Yes it's paid if you like having the app all the time, but the phone itself is also paid. Simply incorporate that into the cost of ownership price, if it's too expensive then don't use it. There are plenty of alternatives out there.