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Sitting for hours can shave years off life
- cantbecool 15y agoDid anyone else notice that the directors name for the call center is 'Gaylord'?
- a3_nm 15y agoCorrelation does not imply causation.
- capnrefsmmat 15y agoI'd like to see a "we gave 5,000 people standing desks and tracked them for ten years" study.
- int3rnaut 15y agoHaha, great idea--They could code name it, "project barking dogs"--if only because I've always liked the phrase "my dogs are barking" used when peoples feet are tired/hurt. I wonder what would happen if the findings for this were also detrimental for ones health? I guess the thing to think about is; moderation is the key to success in a lot of things in life.
- blendergasket 15y agoI want to mount my desk on a stationary bicycle.
- Prophasi 15y agoWhy stationary?
- jerf 15y agoIf you mount your desk to a non-stationary bicycle and then use it for 8 hours, I'd like to see YouTube video of it. ... you should probably plan to take the video in the first few minutes. After that it'll probably be a moot point.
- Prophasi 15y agoWell... that's my point. I'm suggesting blendergasket does it, not me. That would be crazy.
- cpeterso 15y agoThe "Conference Bike" is not quite the same thing as a non-stationary bike desk, but it still insane. (Google has some of these.) *"The ConferenceBike is pedaled by 7 riders sitting in a circle. One person steers while the other 6 pedal (or not) as the bike moves effortlessly along." http://www.ConferenceBike.com/ http://www.ConferenceBike.com/
- adrianN 15y agoThe beer bike is probably more popular: http://www.beerbike.co.uk/ http://www.beerbike.co.uk/
- revorad 15y agoEvery time someone invokes the correlation!=causation genie, Randall Munroe comes to the rescue: "Correlation does not imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'."
- scott_s 15y agoIn this case, I find it likely there's an underlying common cause. I suspect the real culprit is the overall activity level of the person, and sitting is just a part of that.
- parfe 15y agoWhat's particularly interesting about recent research is the revelation that sitting for extended periods of time does significant damage to human health that cannot be undone by exercising. Sitting for several hours each day is bad for you, like smoking is bad for you, regardless of whether you do healthful activities, too. Which is why this story keeps coming up. Sitting for 8-10 hours a day is NOT countered by going to the gym for another 2.
- scott_s 15y agoThe study, as far as I can tell from CNN's reporting, does not support this conclusion. The relevant data: In particular, the American Cancer Society study finds that women who sit for more than six hours a day were about 40% more likely to die during the course of the study than those who sat fewer than three hours per day. Men were about 20% more likely to die. They make no mention of also measuring overall activity levels, which you would need to do to account for that potential confounding common cause. Perhaps the real study did this, but CNN does not tell us, nor do they tell us which study this actually was so we can look for ourselves. I suspect the real study's conclusions are not as strong as this reporting on it.
- parfe 15y agoWhy is your quote from the article meaningful while mine is not? It's right there! "What's particularly interesting about recent research is the revelation that sitting for extended periods of time does significant damage to human health that cannot be undone by exercising." Crappy reporting on science as usual, but it says it right there "recent research" + "revelation" + "sitting for extended periods" + "damage" + "cannot be undone by exercising."
- jerf 15y agoFurther, even if the relationship is in some sense causative, it doesn't imply that removing what may just be one aspect of a complex system will fix the problem. Medical history is replete with treating "not-quite-underlying causes" simply because the not-quite-underlying-cause was easily visible; one of the more recent examples is cholesterol. You can't solve a problem you don't fully understand, not even if the problem is really really important. You can't even say "you might as well just try it, it can't hurt"... are you that sure that standing in one place for years at a time is that much better than sitting in one place for years at a time? What if standing in one place without activity is even harder on you than sitting in one place without activity? Is even being on a treadmill that much better? That's not a very natural activity pattern either, is it? Science is hard.
- misuse-permit 15y agoThey actually controlled for exercise and then went on to find that even the slightest movements are helpful. Here, I think this article actually explains the research better: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.html?_r=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17sitting-t.h...
- ChuckMcM 15y agoI drink Diet Dr. Pepper when I'm working. It's stored about 25' away from where I sit. So I end up getting up, getting another, getting up to drop one off, and sometimes bending and lifting to restock. I didn't realize how much I was doing for my health until this line of research came up :-). From a mental perspective however sometimes getting up and walking around the office or the building helps me focus because there are so many windows on my desktop feeding me information.
- pessimizer 15y agoThen I guess I have to trash my series of studies on coughing, lying in bed, and depression shaving years off your life. Getting grants is hard! /annoyance
- Jach 15y agoYou phrased this wrong. Correlation absolutely implies causation; that is, it's a nice indicator that one should look closer at these things. As opposed to throwing darts in the dark. The correct phrasing is "Correlation is not the same as causation."
- Tycho 15y agoDose imply not have a more concrete, absolute meaning in mathematics though? Expressed with the => sign or something.
- Jach 15y agoYeah there's the logical imply, but that's not exactly what we're after here (I don't think) since the truth table can be tricky and doesn't have to correspond to anything in reality. The truth table for "If P, then Q" (P->Q) evaluates to "True" in all cases of P and Q except when P is True and Q is False. (That is, we don't want true premises to lead to false conclusions, so p->q is false when p is true but q is false.) I'm actually more interested in the mathematics of causality which is formally contained in Probability Theory. (See Judea Pearl's "Causality" for a full treatment...) One expression can be in the form of Prob(Y = y | do(X = x)) (essentially invoking a "do" operator in your given information), another form of representation is with graphs and arrows; electrical engineers have no problems with causality (at least for normal things). Here's my speculation, but I'd say that in the framework of probability theory, a correlative implication can be expressed as background information. And so you ask if prob(short life given unhealthy and some common set of bg info) > prob(short life given just the bg info) to see if there's an "implication" there you may want to investigate and perhaps infer a causation by performing a do() operation (e.g. controlled experiment). Also I find it interesting that physics doesn't have any notion of "causality" in the equations, they just state a relationship. "F = m*a" works in time-reverse as well as time-forward (though this isn't always the case for all the laws, some change under mirror reflection or charge differences). Anyway, I'm not a formal mathematician, someone more knowledgeable can correct me on anything. Read Pearl, Jaynes, etc. if you want more probability theory!
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- rkarthik 15y agoAnother interesting and related article from New York Times: "Stand Up While You Read This" - http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/stand-up-while-you-read-this/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/stand-up-whi...
- lukev 15y agoJust bought a standing desk. I really like it. It isn't as comfortable (obviously), and my legs, feet and back are sore by the end of the day. But they're sore in a good, used way and fine by the next morning. It definitely feels healthier then the sore back and thighs I'd get from sitting still all day.
- RyanMcGreal 15y agoIf standing desks ever take off, I wonder if we'll eventually face news articles with titles like: "Standing for hours can shave years off life"...
- aquark 15y agoFortunately with a desk that goes up and down that is an easy one to fix ... someone just needs to do a study of the ideal proportion time and frequency for changing between sitting and standing.
- RyanMcGreal 15y agoI fear the real issue is inaction, not position.
- eru 15y agoEven if you don't move much, standing needs more muscles just to hold you in place that sitting. (Sitting also needs a few.)
- drewr 15y agoI've tried both extensively and the conclusion I've reached is that staying in one position, standing or sitting, for many hours is the real culprit. The only real cure to sedentariness (which is probably what really shaves off lifespan) is to be as mobile as possible.
- shasta 15y ago
- jvsu 15y agoDoes sitting on an exercise ball have the same deadly effects?
- mrinterweb 15y agoOther factors such as the sitter's balance and type and density of surrounding floor hazards may be considerably more hazardous to the sitter's health. Especially if floor hazards include: acid, alligators, lava, or landmines.
- eru 15y agoI heard that the bouncing that people tend to do on those balls is hard on the back. (But I also know that weight lifting is hard on the back, and that just makes your back grow back stronger. (If you do it right.))
- pdovy 15y agoKelly Starrett did a talk at Google recently on (roughly) this subject: http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/06/episode-276365-mobilitywod-google-talk-desk-bound.html http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/06/episode-276365-mobilitywo... He's got a PhD in Physical Therapy, so I'd rather listen to what he has to say about being healthy behind a desk than a story with a sensationalist headline.
- pstack 15y agoI'd rather enjoy what little life I have left than spend it avoiding all the things that are supposedly going to shave years off my life and spending the entire day standing. I got a nice cushy knowledge-worker career precisely so I wouldn't spend the entire day standing while flipping burgers or digging ditches, thanks. Besides, I'm in pretty poor health due to my own lack of attention to it and of all the things I could bother with, "standing all day at my desk" is pretty far down on the list of what would actually make an important improvement. Plus, you know, I'd rather spend thousands of dollars on something else. A desk of any useful size that is able to bear any useful weight load on it and is also adjustable in ranges enough to go from sitting to standing are incredibly expensive. I'd rather use the money to pay three or four months of my mortgage.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- pdovy 15y agoIf you bothered to look at the above linked article/video prior to replying you'd find it is not some stirring endorsement of standing desks. He actually explicitly makes the point that sitting or standing poorly all day will be detrimental to your health, and in reverse taking a few minutes to learn to do either properly can have a significant positive impact.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- aj700 15y agoI'm always Devil's advocate. ("I say: lettem crash!") My life expectancy without the sitting is about 80. So this is a good thing. 65 years is enough for me.
- seles 15y agoThis type of reasoning is bad: you don't die 15 years earlier, your life deteriorates earlier, making the good years less.
- powrtoch 15y agoHas there been any study about whether standing desks are actually any better? I can easily imagine that sitting motionless for 6 hours and standing motionless for 6 hours have virtually the same effect on the body. That is, let's not be so quick to patch the problem with the first thing that isn't a chair.
- jarek 15y agoFrom my brief experience, it's quite difficult to stand motionless for 6 hours - that alone might be an advantage as you keep on shifting.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- msluyter 15y agoI recently got a combination sit/stand desk and I feel that when I stand I tend to move more overall, however, so "motionless" might be less of a factor. I sway back and forth a lot, or rock on my heels slightly, etc... I've found that breaking my day into about half sitting / half standing has been roughly optimal. I've been unable to stand for the entire day without a fair amount of ankle/foot pain.
- gvb 15y agoSee lkrubner post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2702904 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2702904 for a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Morris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Morris which clearly indicates standing is not sufficient, exercise is necessary. (Please give lkrubner the karma points for posting the link first.) From Wikipedia, "[...] sedentary drivers of London's double-decker buses had higher rates of cardiovascular disease than the conductors who climbed the stairs" and "[Jerry Morris] performed further studies that showed slow movements such as gardening helped very little and exercise had to be more vigorous to help."
- tokenadult 15y agoI like using an exercise ball as my computer desk chair. That helps me move around more as I'm at the computer. But there is no substitute for getting outside and taking a walk, which I think I will do just now on one of our first really pleasant, rain-free days of this year. If you decide to get an exercise ball as a chair substitute, the advice I have received from a YMCA trainer is to size it so that your hips are higher than your knees when you sit on it. For a lot of men of near-average height, a 65cm ball will do. The size can be adjusted up or down a little by how much you inflate the ball.
- mattlong 15y agoI too like them. Careful though, I had been using an exercise ball for a chair for the better part of a year, just a couple weeks ago it popped while I was sitting on it. A couple other caveats: 1)it can bit quite tiring on your back (especially at first) to sit on one for 8-10 hours. 2) since you're sitting on rubber, if it's the least bit warm, things tend to get a bit sweaty down there... :)
- mark_l_watson 15y agoI almost died of complications from blod clots in my left leg 4 1/2 years ago. I recovered OK, but I have been on the war path since then warning people about not sitting too long - both my doctor and I think that working too long at a desk without breaks caused my blood clots. I recommend simply setting a timer for about 20 minutes as a reminder to get up and walk around for a minute or two. Also, it is probably a good idea to walk around the block (at least) a few times each work day.
- StavrosK 15y agoHmm, maybe I should start a rule of 20 minutes of sitting/2 minutes of jumping rope. With the calories jumping rope burns, I'll look amazing in no time.
- Shenglong 15y agoSitting kills you, saturated fats kill you, disposable chopsticks kills you, sugar kills you... We're so concerned about how to extend the time we have, that we're neglecting the time we actually do have. Here's me: I haven't eaten vegetables since I was 8 years old. I sit down in front of a computer screen for multiple hours a day. I eat any junk food I want, as long as it tastes good. I drop a ton of water weight before a fight for weighing purposes. I've learned the physically straining technique, Needle through Glass (throwing a sewing needle through a pane of glass), and I do a lot of binge training. Although I'm perfectly healthy right now, is it possible that I'll die when I'm 60? Yeah. But at least I'll have fully enjoyed my life. It beats the hell out of half living for 90 years. Not to mention, it's also possible your life will be cut short by a rampaging bus... and that has nothing to do with preventable measures. My two cents.
- travisp 15y agoI generally find that being healthy in certain ways makes me enjoy the time I have more. Sugar or refined carbohydrates makes me tired and lethargic -- I never knew how much energy I could have until I gave them up. Standing at my Series 7 desk instead of sitting also gives me more energy, keeps me more focused, keeps me in better positions that reduce carpal tunnel, and I think helps me sleep better. I do eat saturated fat, however, but I'm not convinced after reading Taubes's "Good Calories, Bad Calories" that it is unhealthy for me. So, I eat my vegetables sauteed in lard, bacon fat, or duck fat. It tastes great, and I wouldn't want to give them up for a chocolate bar. Nobody should make health a top value above everything else, and I know some do -- health is a means to your life and I would sacrifice some of my health if it meant more enjoyment. But in most cases, I find better health means not just longevity, but enjoying the time I actually do have.
- paganel 15y ago> Sitting for several hours each day is bad for you, like smoking is bad for you, regardless of whether you do healthful activities, too. I'm looking forward to the EU-directive that will ban chairs in bars and restaurants, the same as they did with smoking.
- ignifero 15y agoIt's not like if you sit on the computer, you increase the chances of the other people in the room to die of cancer.
- jgmmo 15y agoIgnifero it's not because it hits the people around you -- it's because the people around you pay for your care. You don't grok socialized medicine. Smoking is illegal because it's a huge expense on tax money! Smoking is expensive because it causes higher rates of diseases. Make the behavior illegal and you move those funds to other governmental activities. Using a ladder is risky, make ladders illegal. Eating high fat foods is risky, make junk food illegal.
- andylei 15y agoactually, smoking and eating fatty foods is cheap on socialized medicine. they die early, decreasing overall average lifetime costs of care.
- eru 15y agoDepends, depends, depends. For example, the ideal (for the government) smoker or fat person would die on the day they retire and do not need any treatment before that. In practice, their tax paying capabilities might diminish while they are still working. And they might even require expensive treatment while they languish.
- corin_ 15y agoSmoking is illegal because it's a huge expense on tax money! That just isn't correct... smoking isn't illegal, just (depending on what country you are in) smoking in certain public places. I've no idea about other countries, but in the UK (and I don't have a source to cite for this, and it's possible I'm incorrect, but as I was told by a GP - a General Practitioner docter) the taxes paid on tobacco more than cover the cost caused to our National Health Service by smokers. Regardless, even assuming smoking does cost more than the taxes it raises, that's not the reason for public bans - that is simply because your personal health choices shouldn't be allowed to have negative impact on the health of other people.
- dmragone 15y agoI've been wanting to install an adjustable height desk at home to do just this. The problem is I can't find one for less than $600-800. I'm comfortable putting something together myself, but am not sure where to start. I'm open to any suggestions that would get me to a large sit/stand adjustable desk in the $200-400 range.
- jkahn 15y agoCurrently I am using two treated pine planks balanced on four pepsi can crates as my temporary standing desk to see how I like it. It's in the office, not at home. Linkage: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17301814/IMG_0306.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17301814/IMG_0306.jpg Works great. I love it, even though it's a bit ugly.
- eru 15y agoDid you have a look on some DIY websites? I am sure there are communities for that kind of stuff.
- oscardelben 15y agoIkea has some adjustable desks that are within your budget
- shanebooth 15y agobummer... I can feel my golden years slipping away
- michael_dorfman 15y agoOddly enough, it hasn't seemed to effect the life expectancy of Buddhist monks...
- cpeterso 15y agoPerhaps non-sitting Buddhist monks live even longer than sitting Buddhists?
- threepointone 15y agoI've been told that the buddhist monk lifestyle involves a lot of exercise too (cleaning, chopping wood, washing - basically everything to remain self sufficient.) (IANAB, and I apologize if I'm wrong/uninformed)
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- khafra 15y agoThey don't spend six hours a day in zazen for more than a few intensive weeks at a time on rare occasions, do they?
- sandycheeks 15y agoAs a marketer, I love this study because it's a variation on the "Make people think they are thinking and they love you. Make them think and they'll hate you." concept. You're working hard. On your feet all day but this study proves that you're going to outlive those people at corporate who are sitting at a desk all day. You're better than them. I can think of a lot of great products to market with this study like beer or DIY stuff. Here in the US, I would not be surprised to see this study touted by politicians looking for working class votes. Make people think they are exercising more than others and they'll love you. Make them exercise more and they'll hate you.
- JonnieCache 15y agoBeing mildly hyperactive has many hidden benefits :)
- dualogy 15y agoYep. And caffeine is its ideal fuel ;)
- vessenes 15y agoI just put my chair on top of my desk while reading the post; my laptop is now on it. Ghetto standing desk for the win.
- elb0w 15y agoSo if I read the first few paragraphs correctly, Sitting in a chair all day gives men an 80% chance not to get cancer. Sounds pretty sweet to me.
- resnamen 15y agoSitting is insidious in its comfortableness. Sitting for hours definitely contributed to my tight, tight hamstrings, and I am paying the price for them right now. I have a bulging disc that is most definitely the result of my tightness. I can barely lift any weight anymore, I can't partake in my favorite activities, even sex has become a chore. It's had a massively negative impact on my enjoyment of life in general. I have a standing desk now, and I am spending lots of my time and money doing physical therapy and related exercises. To my desk-bound friends who still have good backs: take frequent breaks and stretch those hammies!
- orijing 15y agoThis may be a stupid idea, but here's the trick I use to force myself to not sit down for too long: I drink a ton of water, and I mean a ton. I drink so much that I HAVE to get up every hour (at least) to use the restroom. Usually that's closer to 45 minutes. I know drinking too much water isn't healthy either, but I think I am at a nice balance of hydration. Does anyone else do this?
- oscardelben 15y agoyou should drink when you're thirsty, not for the sake of it. Beware that what you're doing can cause more harms than goods.
- Tharkun 15y agoAny word on how different sitting positions affect these results? I imagine that kneeling (or worse, in Tate-hiza, kneeling with one knee raised and a foot up your arse) would use more muscles than just sitting on your bum all day long?
- Egregore 15y agoI have a hack against sitting: have always a glass of water on your table and drink from it permanently, this way you always need to go to refill the glass and go to rest room to eliminate that water. So you wont be sitting more than 3 hours (usually you'll stand up at least each hour)