4 ms·

This is clearly a separate discussion, but it’s interesting to consider why we’re always so eager to jail people for street crime, but it “seems really excessiv

by tobr 6y ago

This is clearly a separate discussion, but it’s interesting to consider why we’re always so eager to jail people for street crime, but it “seems really excessive” when it’s a white-collar crime.

emn13 6y ago
We empathize with "people doing their job" perhaps a little too much? But part if is must also be just how inhumane jail sentences have become. Prisons are terrible places in the US, and sentences really disproportanate. With that framing, maybe it feels harsh to send somebody to prison for years for "just playing hardball a little too much". I don't know, but the US penal system needs a revamp anyhow.
- tobr 6y ago
  The question is still the same, why do we feel it’s fair when blue-collar criminals are treated inhumanly, but harsh when applied to white-collar criminals?
  - ddingus 6y ago
    The same reasons lie behind why we also tend to ignore many external costs.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    The personal violation you feel as a victim of a mugging or a burglary is more visceral and real, whether someone steals a dollar or ten thousand dollars. The perp takes something from your psyche, and we want to extract the same. When some character fudges a spreadsheet or sets up a viscous cycle in business, it is more abstract. We’ve all done it to some degree (received an undeserved discount, more change than owed, etc), and the black and white “wrongness” varies. Another consideration is that the punishment for white collar crime is very severe in terms of loss of agency and autonomy. Once you’re convicted of a felony, you’re kryptonite — you’re trading your comfy middle class existence for something riskier and worse. Typical suburban punter is losing most of your friends and probably your home and spouse. The kids lose their nice school or get stuck in a grubby apartment. White collar criminals have more to lose, so the punishment standard is different.
    - tobr 6y ago
      Let me unpack this. Do you think any given person is more likely to be considered “kryptonite” because they committed insider trading than because they did, say, a smash-and-grab? If not, your last paragraph is not justifying more lenient punishments for a certain class of crime, but for a certain class of socio-economic status. To put it in other words, only poor people should go to jail.
    - MereInterest 6y ago
      There's a nice line by Terry Prachett in his book "Going Postal". This is near the start of the story, as the protagonist, a conman, is being confronted with the effects of his cons. > "I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly. > "I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!" > "No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.” White-collar crime has effects. Every time people are encouraged to clock out, then clean up their station, that's 15 minutes of wage theft. Heck, sometimes this becomes so common that the criminals work to make it legal. Every time that Amazon has their mandatory daily exit screening, that's 30-60 minutes of time that should be on the clock, but is completely unpaid, legal and SCOTUS-approved, and wildly unethical.
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      > White collar criminals have more to lose, so the punishment standard is different. I feel like you’re so close to identifying the root cause of why the two groups are treated differently. The answer is hiding in the first five words.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Martha Stewart did 6 months for lying. Hopefully the Jan 6 knuckleheads will get a little longer than that.
  - clarge1120 6y ago
    I downvoted you because you are deviating the conversation. I find it hard not to attribute hidden intentions behind what you posted. The parent comment quoted saying they were loading their ads before ads from competitor networks. Noone said anything about Jan 6, or anything touching on the event. You are obviously trying to shift the conversation away from how Google controls AMP and apparently used it to gain an advantage in the ad market (basically an antitrust issue) to a partisan political conversation.
randallsquared 6y ago
It seems likely that "street crime" mostly refers to physical violence or the threat of it, while "white-collar crime" refers to breaking some rules. While much more real damage might be done with rule-breaking, such activity doesn't provoke visceral fear, it's harder for most people to be emotionally invested in retribution.
- microtherion 6y ago
  "Street Crime" can also consist of selling single cigarettes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner Or of hanging an air freshener on your rearview mirror: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/us/police-shooting-air-freshener-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/us/police-shooting-air-fr...
rtsil 6y ago
That's because HN's audience is composed of a large majority of white collars, and from a larger perspective, 99% of politicians, judges, lawyers, journalists, columnists, editorialists and commentators are white collars. It's just empathy (in this case, misguided empathy). We can identify more easily with a white collar criminal than a blue collar criminal.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  No, it’s because a violent pickpocket puts my loved ones in more immediate, direct danger than some ads loading a little slower on a website.
  - rtsil 6y ago
    How about a poor guy caught with a few grams of marijuana, only looking to pleasure himself? On the other hand, Wall Street put many people's loved ones in clear danger, leaving them in the street, without jobs and without health insurance in 2008 and none of them went to jail.
    - philwelch 6y ago
      I would guess that most people on HN would favor legalizing cannabis possession.
  - bentcorner 6y ago
    It is difficult to weigh actions that greatly harm one person against tiny annoyances to millions, but you could argue that the tiny annoyances to millions is a larger offense than violently robbing a single person on the street.
    - adwn 6y ago
      > you could argue that the tiny annoyances to millions is a larger offense than violently robbing a single person on the street. Yeah, no, you really couldn't. It sounds like you've never been the victim of direct, physical violence, and the psychological effects it causes.
Karunamon 6y ago
It's an easy distinction for me. Incarceration shouldn't be used for anything but violent offenders. The torturous impacts on the inmate's mental state ring so many cruelty bells that I can't accept it as anything other than the last resort for people that have to be kept out of the public for safety reasons.
philwelch 6y ago
Who exactly is “we” in this discussion?

by tobr 6y ago

emn13 6y ago

We empathize with "people doing their job" perhaps a little too much? But part if is must also be just how inhumane jail sentences have become. Prisons are terrible places in the US, and sentences really disproportanate. With that framing, maybe it feels harsh to send somebody to prison for years for "just playing hardball a little too much". I don't know, but the US penal system needs a revamp anyhow.

tobr 6y ago
The question is still the same, why do we feel it’s fair when blue-collar criminals are treated inhumanly, but harsh when applied to white-collar criminals?
- ddingus 6y ago
  The same reasons lie behind why we also tend to ignore many external costs.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  The personal violation you feel as a victim of a mugging or a burglary is more visceral and real, whether someone steals a dollar or ten thousand dollars. The perp takes something from your psyche, and we want to extract the same. When some character fudges a spreadsheet or sets up a viscous cycle in business, it is more abstract. We’ve all done it to some degree (received an undeserved discount, more change than owed, etc), and the black and white “wrongness” varies. Another consideration is that the punishment for white collar crime is very severe in terms of loss of agency and autonomy. Once you’re convicted of a felony, you’re kryptonite — you’re trading your comfy middle class existence for something riskier and worse. Typical suburban punter is losing most of your friends and probably your home and spouse. The kids lose their nice school or get stuck in a grubby apartment. White collar criminals have more to lose, so the punishment standard is different.
  - tobr 6y ago
    Let me unpack this. Do you think any given person is more likely to be considered “kryptonite” because they committed insider trading than because they did, say, a smash-and-grab? If not, your last paragraph is not justifying more lenient punishments for a certain class of crime, but for a certain class of socio-economic status. To put it in other words, only poor people should go to jail.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    There's a nice line by Terry Prachett in his book "Going Postal". This is near the start of the story, as the protagonist, a conman, is being confronted with the effects of his cons. > "I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly. > "I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!" > "No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.” White-collar crime has effects. Every time people are encouraged to clock out, then clean up their station, that's 15 minutes of wage theft. Heck, sometimes this becomes so common that the criminals work to make it legal. Every time that Amazon has their mandatory daily exit screening, that's 30-60 minutes of time that should be on the clock, but is completely unpaid, legal and SCOTUS-approved, and wildly unethical.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    > White collar criminals have more to lose, so the punishment standard is different. I feel like you’re so close to identifying the root cause of why the two groups are treated differently. The answer is hiding in the first five words.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Martha Stewart did 6 months for lying. Hopefully the Jan 6 knuckleheads will get a little longer than that.
- clarge1120 6y ago
  I downvoted you because you are deviating the conversation. I find it hard not to attribute hidden intentions behind what you posted. The parent comment quoted saying they were loading their ads before ads from competitor networks. Noone said anything about Jan 6, or anything touching on the event. You are obviously trying to shift the conversation away from how Google controls AMP and apparently used it to gain an advantage in the ad market (basically an antitrust issue) to a partisan political conversation.

randallsquared 6y ago

It seems likely that "street crime" mostly refers to physical violence or the threat of it, while "white-collar crime" refers to breaking some rules. While much more real damage might be done with rule-breaking, such activity doesn't provoke visceral fear, it's harder for most people to be emotionally invested in retribution.

microtherion 6y ago
"Street Crime" can also consist of selling single cigarettes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner Or of hanging an air freshener on your rearview mirror: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/us/police-shooting-air-freshener-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/us/police-shooting-air-fr...

rtsil 6y ago

That's because HN's audience is composed of a large majority of white collars, and from a larger perspective, 99% of politicians, judges, lawyers, journalists, columnists, editorialists and commentators are white collars. It's just empathy (in this case, misguided empathy). We can identify more easily with a white collar criminal than a blue collar criminal.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
No, it’s because a violent pickpocket puts my loved ones in more immediate, direct danger than some ads loading a little slower on a website.
- rtsil 6y ago
  How about a poor guy caught with a few grams of marijuana, only looking to pleasure himself? On the other hand, Wall Street put many people's loved ones in clear danger, leaving them in the street, without jobs and without health insurance in 2008 and none of them went to jail.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    I would guess that most people on HN would favor legalizing cannabis possession.
- bentcorner 6y ago
  It is difficult to weigh actions that greatly harm one person against tiny annoyances to millions, but you could argue that the tiny annoyances to millions is a larger offense than violently robbing a single person on the street.
  - adwn 6y ago
    > you could argue that the tiny annoyances to millions is a larger offense than violently robbing a single person on the street. Yeah, no, you really couldn't. It sounds like you've never been the victim of direct, physical violence, and the psychological effects it causes.

Karunamon 6y ago

It's an easy distinction for me. Incarceration shouldn't be used for anything but violent offenders. The torturous impacts on the inmate's mental state ring so many cruelty bells that I can't accept it as anything other than the last resort for people that have to be kept out of the public for safety reasons.

philwelch 6y ago

Who exactly is “we” in this discussion?