7 ms·

But how people can live in such buildings then? I understand about poorer countries with lack of regulations, but have not thought that's possible in Europe. G

by trymas 5y ago

But how people can live in such buildings then? I understand about poorer countries with lack of regulations, but have not thought that's possible in Europe. Government should not allow anyone to live or operate in such buildings if they're not up to code and are not finished. How people can get mortgages for such things, or how business can register their offices if building is permanently "under construction"?

bluGill 5y ago
It's is common to remodel buildings, you kick out people near the work but on the other side they can still be there. So you need to convince the inspector and bank that the used part is done and the rest can be done later.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Europe is very diverse. From "what are we going to do with all this oil money" Norway to "there are shacks with people in them" Bulgaria.
- robotomir 5y ago
  >"there are shacks with people in them" Bulgaria. The what now?
  - oblio 5y ago
    I'm guessing he means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub or chipboard houses. Super cheap construction (wattle and daub being older houses, usually 100+ year old houses built by very poor people; chipboard being used for sheds and even some rooms, but generally with some extra insulation layers and obviously painted/protected against humidity).
ralfn 5y ago
I've only been a tourist in Greece, so definitely not an expert, but.... Take your house. Now add some scaffolding for a new floor on top of it. Does it alter the ability or even quality of living in it? It might also help hide the pool, which is also taxed. "Up to code" isn't the same as a safe house. That's just such an american way of looking at issues. All that does is make the legal liability clear. It doesn't make anything safer or nicer. It's like arguing that a 'stop sign' makes an intersection safer. It doesn't. Real proper pedestrian and cycling infrastructure does. Traffic calming. A stop sign just tells you who gets bankrupted when another person is killed yet again. Your asking the question 'if it's unclear who can be sued how can people be safe' but these things are completely unrelated. As any statistic would tell you.
- trymas 5y ago
  > That's just such an american way of looking at issues. You could not be any more wrong and your rant at then end was irrelevant on what I've asked.
- yonaguska 5y ago
  Having worked construction in the US, "up to code" does at minimum mean a safe structure. While different municipalities may have extended code to allow for unnecessary regulations- much of the actual core safety stuff is much more strict than what you may see in many developing countries.
oblio 5y ago
People often don't get mortgages for such things, they're frequently working illegally or working legally for minimum wage and being paid cash the rest. Businesses can definitely do the same. If anything, these buildings are frequently built up slowly over years or decades, on paper being built by friends and family, so there's no need for a pesky bank loan to build the thing, just finance it from savings. And regarding lack of regulations, I can assure you that about 50% of Europe isn't too keen on regulation, either. Plus, few people are that stupid. This isn't actually dangerous. They generally leave some "decorative" rebar sticking out somewhere over 2m or so in the air, or on the actual roof of the building. Nobody can really get hurt, not more than you'd bump into the chimney :-)
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
If the regulatory compliance situation is such that people aren't finishing structures in order to game it I would be very, very surprised if adding more government to prevent people from using technically unfinished structures fixes it.

by trymas 5y ago

bluGill 5y ago

It's is common to remodel buildings, you kick out people near the work but on the other side they can still be there. So you need to convince the inspector and bank that the used part is done and the rest can be done later.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Europe is very diverse. From "what are we going to do with all this oil money" Norway to "there are shacks with people in them" Bulgaria.

robotomir 5y ago
>"there are shacks with people in them" Bulgaria. The what now?
- oblio 5y ago
  I'm guessing he means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub or chipboard houses. Super cheap construction (wattle and daub being older houses, usually 100+ year old houses built by very poor people; chipboard being used for sheds and even some rooms, but generally with some extra insulation layers and obviously painted/protected against humidity).

ralfn 5y ago

I've only been a tourist in Greece, so definitely not an expert, but.... Take your house. Now add some scaffolding for a new floor on top of it. Does it alter the ability or even quality of living in it? It might also help hide the pool, which is also taxed. "Up to code" isn't the same as a safe house. That's just such an american way of looking at issues. All that does is make the legal liability clear. It doesn't make anything safer or nicer. It's like arguing that a 'stop sign' makes an intersection safer. It doesn't. Real proper pedestrian and cycling infrastructure does. Traffic calming. A stop sign just tells you who gets bankrupted when another person is killed yet again. Your asking the question 'if it's unclear who can be sued how can people be safe' but these things are completely unrelated. As any statistic would tell you.

trymas 5y ago
> That's just such an american way of looking at issues. You could not be any more wrong and your rant at then end was irrelevant on what I've asked.
yonaguska 5y ago
Having worked construction in the US, "up to code" does at minimum mean a safe structure. While different municipalities may have extended code to allow for unnecessary regulations- much of the actual core safety stuff is much more strict than what you may see in many developing countries.

oblio 5y ago

People often don't get mortgages for such things, they're frequently working illegally or working legally for minimum wage and being paid cash the rest. Businesses can definitely do the same. If anything, these buildings are frequently built up slowly over years or decades, on paper being built by friends and family, so there's no need for a pesky bank loan to build the thing, just finance it from savings. And regarding lack of regulations, I can assure you that about 50% of Europe isn't too keen on regulation, either. Plus, few people are that stupid. This isn't actually dangerous. They generally leave some "decorative" rebar sticking out somewhere over 2m or so in the air, or on the actual roof of the building. Nobody can really get hurt, not more than you'd bump into the chimney :-)

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

If the regulatory compliance situation is such that people aren't finishing structures in order to game it I would be very, very surprised if adding more government to prevent people from using technically unfinished structures fixes it.