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fees are hitting all-time highs I just checked https://mempool.space https://mempool.space A low-priority transaction cost $2.36; medium is $4.39 and high is

fees are hitting all-time highs I just checked https://mempool.space https://mempool.space A low-priority transaction cost $2.36; medium is $4.39 and high is $7.48. To put this into context: you can send $10,000 worth of BTC anywhere in the world in an hour for $2.36 right now. A bank wire transfer for $10,000 is going to be at least $35; often it's more, depending on which country you're sending to and if you have to use an intermediate bank to get to the bank you're ultimately are attempting to reach. Bank holidays, weekends, etc. don't apply to bitcoin.

garmaine 6y ago
My bank does those wires for free…
- csomar 6y ago
  International SWIFT wires? What's your bank?
  - lhl 6y ago
    My Schwab account does international wires settled in USD or in a number of foreign currencies for free. (The official fee is $15 but it’s always been refunded for me.)
    - argvargc 6y ago
      "Free". In the case of any currency conversion - you'll likely be silently stung a single digit percentage during conversion. Check rates quoted on the final statement versus those prevailing at that time. For a few limited cases of going USD -> USD (in foreign jurisdiction), and the USD is not converted to anything else ever, there may be a net win. In all other cases (the majority), you, or the receiver will at some point be paying far more than the wire fee for any transfer over a grand or so.
      - csomar 6y ago
        I didn't do wires with Schwab but I'll trust it's cheaper than your average bank when it comes to conversion rates. (They do refund ATM withdrawal fees for international ATMs)
      - garmaine 6y ago
        Schwab forex exchange really is without fees. It’s done at the current forex rate with no basis points taken. I’ve checked my transfers against the forex rate for the day. Schwab operates these retail banking services as a loss-leader for their investment products.
        argvargc 6y ago
        Happy to be wrong on this. I've never experienced a bank that hasn't silently gouged on forex, and this is the first I've even heard of one that didn't. Definitely good to continue to be vigilant about such claims. As for BTC, I wouldn't use it for anything other than a store of value - there are far better crypto options for transferring value. Some cost fractions of cent and take seconds. Others cost single-digit dollars, but are fiat-pegged so there's no volatility risk at all.
      - lhl 6y ago
        As the other @garmaine mentions, the currency conversion is at mid-market rates, no fees. I've compared the rates to Wise and other options and it's far less cost, and certainly less cost than the median tx fee of BTC by itself, let alone slippage or fiat conversions or exchange fees. Anyone who thinks BTC has any advantage as a medium of exchange I'm convinced has never actually used it/compared it to existing options.
    - me_me_me 6y ago
      "Free" or in reality we will get our money one way or the other.
- hellow0rldz 6y ago
  Cheap international wires are $25.
sjy 6y ago
Those transaction cost estimates are extremely volatile. I recently tried to pay 50 sat/vB (~$4) for a transaction on a Monday and it didn’t clear until Saturday. Unfortunately mempool.space doesn’t seem to publish historical data, but it seems that weekends do affect Bitcoin, in that transactions are significantly cheaper.
- drexlspivey 6y ago
  I payed $0.5 in fees yesterday (900 satoshis) and it took a couple of hours to clear
arcticbull 6y ago
Just so we're not talking past eachother. You cannot send $10,000 anywhere in the world via Bitcoin for $2-7, you have to first convert the $10,000 to BTC at a local exchange, wait 3 days, pay 1-2%, suffer slippage, pay $2-7, wait an hour, pay 1-2% at the remote exchange and wait for the money to deposit into a bank account. This is true because you can't spend Bitcoin for goods and services - generally speaking anyways. Bitcoin in this context is just the intermediary unit which is elided in a wire. Re: wires, domestic US wires are offered free of charge by many institutions, and are instant during regular business hours. Obviously delays apply outside. For reference, an ACH transaction costs banks $0.002 in bulk to the depository institution. A FedWire costs $0.033 in bulk to the depository institution. [1] Transfers outside the US cost more and take longer because of AML and KYC. Not to mention that the move in the US from ACH to RTP makes ~free and instant domestic transfers 24/7. No blockchain needed. Because of course there isn't, the current system was based on policy not technical limitations of MySQL. [2] [1] https://www.frbservices.org/resources/fees/wires-2021.html https://www.frbservices.org/resources/fees/wires-2021.html [2] https://www.jpmorgan.com/solutions/treasury-payments/insights/real-value-real-time-payments https://www.jpmorgan.com/solutions/treasury-payments/insight...
- frankenst1 6y ago
  >> you can send $10,000 worth of BTC anywhere in the world > You cannot send $10,000 anywhere in the world via Bitcoin You are citing currency exchange costs that would also be applicable to EUR/JPY/GBP/... This is why the post you responded to said "worth of BTC".
quesera 6y ago
Bitcoin fees have ranged between $0.79 and $33.00 within the past week (feerates between 10 sat/vB and 250 sat/vB) [0]. There have been periods where the prevailing feerate has remained over 150 sat/vB ($12 - $24) for 24 hours. And unless you're already in $10K of BTC, you will lose exchange fees and are subject to the forex (equivalent) rate. Your receiver will have the same burdens. Wire transfers/SWIFT/FedWire etc are effectively instantaneous, the fees are 100% predictable, and they are accepted everywhere worldwide for all legitimate business. As you note, they can be inconvenient or impossible on overnights, holidays, and weekends. I'm not disagreeing with you -- just noting that the quoted Bitcoin fees at any point in time are not reliable, and that the whole process is more complicated than it might appear. [0] (background for other readers) Bitcoin fees are a function of the transaction size in (virtual) bytes (minimally either ~140 vB or ~240 vB, depending on the type of addresses used), multiplied by the feerate in satoshis per virtual byte. Converting to USD, you have to consider the BTC-USD exchange rate which has been bouncing around $55K lately. So, e.g.: 240 vB * 250 sat/vB == 60_000 sat 60_000 sat == 0.0006 BTC (100_000_000 satoshis per BTC) 0.0006 BTC == 33.00 USD (at $55_000 USD per BTC)
crazypython 6y ago
Right now (9AM EST) a low priority txn costs $0.49, medium priority costs $0.57, and high priority costs $0.66. Most payments– imagine hiring a contractor or buying a Starbucks gift card– don't need to go through instantly.

garmaine 6y ago

My bank does those wires for free…

csomar 6y ago
International SWIFT wires? What's your bank?
- lhl 6y ago
  My Schwab account does international wires settled in USD or in a number of foreign currencies for free. (The official fee is $15 but it’s always been refunded for me.)
  - argvargc 6y ago
    "Free". In the case of any currency conversion - you'll likely be silently stung a single digit percentage during conversion. Check rates quoted on the final statement versus those prevailing at that time. For a few limited cases of going USD -> USD (in foreign jurisdiction), and the USD is not converted to anything else ever, there may be a net win. In all other cases (the majority), you, or the receiver will at some point be paying far more than the wire fee for any transfer over a grand or so.
    - csomar 6y ago
      I didn't do wires with Schwab but I'll trust it's cheaper than your average bank when it comes to conversion rates. (They do refund ATM withdrawal fees for international ATMs)
    - garmaine 6y ago
      Schwab forex exchange really is without fees. It’s done at the current forex rate with no basis points taken. I’ve checked my transfers against the forex rate for the day. Schwab operates these retail banking services as a loss-leader for their investment products.
      - argvargc 6y ago
        Happy to be wrong on this. I've never experienced a bank that hasn't silently gouged on forex, and this is the first I've even heard of one that didn't. Definitely good to continue to be vigilant about such claims. As for BTC, I wouldn't use it for anything other than a store of value - there are far better crypto options for transferring value. Some cost fractions of cent and take seconds. Others cost single-digit dollars, but are fiat-pegged so there's no volatility risk at all.
    - lhl 6y ago
      As the other @garmaine mentions, the currency conversion is at mid-market rates, no fees. I've compared the rates to Wise and other options and it's far less cost, and certainly less cost than the median tx fee of BTC by itself, let alone slippage or fiat conversions or exchange fees. Anyone who thinks BTC has any advantage as a medium of exchange I'm convinced has never actually used it/compared it to existing options.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    "Free" or in reality we will get our money one way or the other.
hellow0rldz 6y ago
Cheap international wires are $25.

sjy 6y ago

Those transaction cost estimates are extremely volatile. I recently tried to pay 50 sat/vB (~$4) for a transaction on a Monday and it didn’t clear until Saturday. Unfortunately mempool.space doesn’t seem to publish historical data, but it seems that weekends do affect Bitcoin, in that transactions are significantly cheaper.

drexlspivey 6y ago
I payed $0.5 in fees yesterday (900 satoshis) and it took a couple of hours to clear

arcticbull 6y ago

Just so we're not talking past eachother. You cannot send $10,000 anywhere in the world via Bitcoin for $2-7, you have to first convert the $10,000 to BTC at a local exchange, wait 3 days, pay 1-2%, suffer slippage, pay $2-7, wait an hour, pay 1-2% at the remote exchange and wait for the money to deposit into a bank account. This is true because you can't spend Bitcoin for goods and services - generally speaking anyways. Bitcoin in this context is just the intermediary unit which is elided in a wire. Re: wires, domestic US wires are offered free of charge by many institutions, and are instant during regular business hours. Obviously delays apply outside. For reference, an ACH transaction costs banks $0.002 in bulk to the depository institution. A FedWire costs $0.033 in bulk to the depository institution. [1] Transfers outside the US cost more and take longer because of AML and KYC. Not to mention that the move in the US from ACH to RTP makes ~free and instant domestic transfers 24/7. No blockchain needed. Because of course there isn't, the current system was based on policy not technical limitations of MySQL. [2] [1] https://www.frbservices.org/resources/fees/wires-2021.html https://www.frbservices.org/resources/fees/wires-2021.html [2] https://www.jpmorgan.com/solutions/treasury-payments/insights/real-value-real-time-payments https://www.jpmorgan.com/solutions/treasury-payments/insight...

frankenst1 6y ago
>> you can send $10,000 worth of BTC anywhere in the world > You cannot send $10,000 anywhere in the world via Bitcoin You are citing currency exchange costs that would also be applicable to EUR/JPY/GBP/... This is why the post you responded to said "worth of BTC".

quesera 6y ago

Bitcoin fees have ranged between $0.79 and $33.00 within the past week (feerates between 10 sat/vB and 250 sat/vB) [0]. There have been periods where the prevailing feerate has remained over 150 sat/vB ($12 - $24) for 24 hours. And unless you're already in $10K of BTC, you will lose exchange fees and are subject to the forex (equivalent) rate. Your receiver will have the same burdens. Wire transfers/SWIFT/FedWire etc are effectively instantaneous, the fees are 100% predictable, and they are accepted everywhere worldwide for all legitimate business. As you note, they can be inconvenient or impossible on overnights, holidays, and weekends. I'm not disagreeing with you -- just noting that the quoted Bitcoin fees at any point in time are not reliable, and that the whole process is more complicated than it might appear. [0] (background for other readers) Bitcoin fees are a function of the transaction size in (virtual) bytes (minimally either ~140 vB or ~240 vB, depending on the type of addresses used), multiplied by the feerate in satoshis per virtual byte. Converting to USD, you have to consider the BTC-USD exchange rate which has been bouncing around $55K lately. So, e.g.: 240 vB * 250 sat/vB == 60_000 sat 60_000 sat == 0.0006 BTC (100_000_000 satoshis per BTC) 0.0006 BTC == 33.00 USD (at $55_000 USD per BTC)

crazypython 6y ago

Right now (9AM EST) a low priority txn costs $0.49, medium priority costs $0.57, and high priority costs $0.66. Most payments– imagine hiring a contractor or buying a Starbucks gift card– don't need to go through instantly.