4 ms·

Musk's public persona is a nightmare, even if you only look at his public professional persona -- encouraging overwork, getting himself knowledgeable enough abo

by _qwfv 5y ago

Musk's public persona is a nightmare, even if you only look at his public professional persona -- encouraging overwork, getting himself knowledgeable enough about a subject to fool laymen and investors but not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates, a total disregard for safety of both his customers and his workers, and developing an unhealthy cult of personality. I own a Tesla, I love SpaceX, I think Elon Musk is insufferable.

gjdjfnfhdbf 5y ago
Fair points, but one trait that I do admire is his lack of elitism. That was sorely missing at Neuralink when I visited.
throwaway3699 5y ago
> getting himself knowledgeable enough about a subject to fool laymen and investors but not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates This is both a strength and weakness. How many times have people wished CEOs actually knew what they were talking about? As long as Elon knows enough to build a decent team and lead it well, he doesn't need to know everything. From the outside it looks like he sees himself as 'one of the engineers' which is something I deeply respect, even if there's major issues as well (FSD and Hyperloop being the big ones).
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  Yeah, I appreciate any engineering firm that at least attempts to have some engineering leadership in charge. > major issues as well (FSD and Hyperloop being the big ones). That Vegas loop too... That's going to be a truly awful tunnel fire someday, and the safety systems there seem seriously lacking. (Also, the whole project feels like a grift.)
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    It’s in a conceptual prototyping stage, jeez. Criticism is fine but you gotta let the bud flower, come to fruition and then put regulations. That’s how literally every single world changing technology is invented. If Elon’s ideas don’t work out, fine. It was a boondoggle on his own dime, what’s anyone’s business in slamming down on the efforts? Risk taking is amazing. I’m not sure if I want to live in a risk averse world where ideas are nipped in the bud by CEOs of GE and Honeywell.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      "Tunnels" is not something that is at a "conceptual prototyping stage". We've built tunnels for hundreds of years. We know what the dangers are, we don't need a prototype to kill a bunch of people to find that out.
      - the__prestige 5y ago
        You could make a similar argument against electric cars.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        Electric cars? Perhaps. Self-driving cars? Not so much.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        I'm not sure what down-voters are disagreeing with: electric cars have been in existence for over 100 years, there are very few unknowns there. Self-driving cars are a very recent development, and not a single developer has achieved widespread Level 5 autonomy. I thought that'd be pretty uncontroversial, but this is HN, I guess.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - Pyramus 5y ago
      Ah yes, the world changing technology of putting a potential fire hazard in a narrow tunnel with no escape routes. What could possibly go wrong? [1] More information https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPMt_FS-s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPMt_FS-s8 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tunnel_disasters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tunnel_disasters
ekianjo 5y ago
> not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates, Reasonable estimates like what ? If your company works on something that has never been done before there is not much data at hand to make good estimates is it ?
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  Everything from self driving, to shipping cars, to moon and Mars missions. It's one thing to be an optimist. It's another to promise something you have no path to deliver.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    I agree with self driving... But Tesla IS shipping a heck of a lot of cars, now. And sending people to the Moon and Mars seem increasingly likely.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      Yes, now they are. Tesla circa 2014 was very different.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    SoaceX just got a sole-source contract with NASA to send humans to the moon in 3 years.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      Musk said he'd be launching a mission to Mars every possible window starting 2024. Including manned missions. I believe he was going to send an experimental mission to Mars before that. My point isn't that these companies don't get there, it's that they take much, much, much longer than estimated.
      - garmaine 5y ago
        The first one won’t be crewed, and there’s no way that’s going to be ready by 2022. So 2024 will be unmanned. Maybe 2026 will be the first crewed test mission, but 2028 is more likely. But we’re still talking aspirational Elon-time. If I were betting money, I’d say the 2030’s is more realistic. Note that they have done zero work on building a anything other than the rocket body to get there. Making the interior volume habitable for 2 years of interplanetary travel is going to be non-trivial.
fallingknife 5y ago
Yeah he really fooled all those Tesla and spacex investors into those massive returns. They must be so pissed.
- fastball 5y ago
  They might not be but the TSLAQ people are still chomping at the bit.
nbardy 5y ago
Elons estimates aren't about being accurate.
systemvoltage 5y ago
I don’t get Elon hate just the way I don’t get fanboyism and cult following. Neither side provides an objective and truthful representation of reality. No single personality can be 100% perfect. Let’s not ignore pretty much the entire world changing revolution of EVs and reusable rocketry, while focusing on the guy’s public persona and how he behaves that’s apparent to us and project what he must be like in general. Seems deeply and profoundly unfair. Why can’t someone have flaws which is ok to point out, but then ignore their accomplishments. Opposite also stands! Fanboys of Elon think he is some kind of a messiah to save the world from global collapse but turn a blind eye to his rather rude behavior? It’s like populism has a reverse backside of the coin.
- pcl 5y ago
  It in response to a post in which the author said they wanted to revisit joining Neuralink because hopefully now their culture is more in line with Musk’s public persona. And the post ended with praise for Musk’s projects. That doesn’t read as “haters gonna hate” to me, but rather as a narrow criticism of just the one aspect of Musk’s businesses that was brought up.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mulcahey 5y ago
  IMO silent majority has pretty balanced view of him and just doesn’t care to participate in a holy war praising or hating on the guy. Social media and regular media bias towards the polar opinions, as with anything else. History respects Edison, Jobs, Tesla, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Hughes for what the accomplished while acknowledging their individual flaws. I think Musk will be remember similarly. Depending how successful his ventures are over the coming century he might even be remembered more than any of them.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    It's an interesting observation. Personally, when I look back at giants and read their biographies, I find the most interesting bits usually about how they were motivated, what drove them, how they overcame challenges and hopelessness, how they forged business relations - I think the least interesting part is their personal life and what they did to piss someone off or what they tweeted/told publicly. The latter is just typical soap opera of details that provide little value to me. The latest Steve Jobs movie primarily focused on the melodrama of his personal relationships and offered literally nothing about what made Apple succesful.
disillusioned 5y ago
Those that work for him call it "the impossible ask": Musk will basically spin through the engineering floors of SpaceX and push the team for something that's functionally impossible. Whether this strategy motivates brilliance to emerge is probably not _terribly_ in dispute: they do get results. The "at what cost" element and the burnout and other impacts... those are more tricky to weigh.
inglor_cz 5y ago
" a total disregard for safety of both his customers and his workers" At least in the case of SpaceX, they do not seem to be as reckless as you paint them. After 20 years in space industry, they have 0 fatalities on record, which is uncommon for a corporation of this size and history. And they scrub launches whenever they are concerned about weather or anything off-nominal that their sensors indicate. Which led to an excellent safety record for Falcon 9s once the technology matured.
- heymijo 5y ago
  Gwynne Shotwell runs the day to day at SpaceX. She hasn’t gotten a ton of press but it’s clear she is a key reason for the successes you described above. Which Musk can take some credit for—-hiring well and not getting in her way.
spoonjim 5y ago
Musk’s public persona is: the guy without whom nobody would know the names Tesla and SpaceX. As noxious as his personality seems to be, he does deliver.
mettamage 5y ago
> but not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates There are enough senior software engineers in this world that will have a crazy hard time making a good estimate. There was this HN comment once that mentioned that learning how to estimate work is it's entire own discipline. It can be done and trained, according to that comment, but the comment also seemed to imply that it seems very unusual to do so. I can't find the comment unfortunately, I read it years ago here.

by _qwfv 5y ago

gjdjfnfhdbf 5y ago

Fair points, but one trait that I do admire is his lack of elitism. That was sorely missing at Neuralink when I visited.

throwaway3699 5y ago

> getting himself knowledgeable enough about a subject to fool laymen and investors but not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates This is both a strength and weakness. How many times have people wished CEOs actually knew what they were talking about? As long as Elon knows enough to build a decent team and lead it well, he doesn't need to know everything. From the outside it looks like he sees himself as 'one of the engineers' which is something I deeply respect, even if there's major issues as well (FSD and Hyperloop being the big ones).

Pfhreak 5y ago
Yeah, I appreciate any engineering firm that at least attempts to have some engineering leadership in charge. > major issues as well (FSD and Hyperloop being the big ones). That Vegas loop too... That's going to be a truly awful tunnel fire someday, and the safety systems there seem seriously lacking. (Also, the whole project feels like a grift.)
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  It’s in a conceptual prototyping stage, jeez. Criticism is fine but you gotta let the bud flower, come to fruition and then put regulations. That’s how literally every single world changing technology is invented. If Elon’s ideas don’t work out, fine. It was a boondoggle on his own dime, what’s anyone’s business in slamming down on the efforts? Risk taking is amazing. I’m not sure if I want to live in a risk averse world where ideas are nipped in the bud by CEOs of GE and Honeywell.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    "Tunnels" is not something that is at a "conceptual prototyping stage". We've built tunnels for hundreds of years. We know what the dangers are, we don't need a prototype to kill a bunch of people to find that out.
    - the__prestige 5y ago
      You could make a similar argument against electric cars.
      - sangnoir 5y ago
        Electric cars? Perhaps. Self-driving cars? Not so much.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        I'm not sure what down-voters are disagreeing with: electric cars have been in existence for over 100 years, there are very few unknowns there. Self-driving cars are a very recent development, and not a single developer has achieved widespread Level 5 autonomy. I thought that'd be pretty uncontroversial, but this is HN, I guess.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    Ah yes, the world changing technology of putting a potential fire hazard in a narrow tunnel with no escape routes. What could possibly go wrong? [1] More information https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPMt_FS-s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPMt_FS-s8 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tunnel_disasters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tunnel_disasters

ekianjo 5y ago

> not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates, Reasonable estimates like what ? If your company works on something that has never been done before there is not much data at hand to make good estimates is it ?

Pfhreak 5y ago
Everything from self driving, to shipping cars, to moon and Mars missions. It's one thing to be an optimist. It's another to promise something you have no path to deliver.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  I agree with self driving... But Tesla IS shipping a heck of a lot of cars, now. And sending people to the Moon and Mars seem increasingly likely.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    Yes, now they are. Tesla circa 2014 was very different.
- garmaine 5y ago
  SoaceX just got a sole-source contract with NASA to send humans to the moon in 3 years.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    Musk said he'd be launching a mission to Mars every possible window starting 2024. Including manned missions. I believe he was going to send an experimental mission to Mars before that. My point isn't that these companies don't get there, it's that they take much, much, much longer than estimated.
    - garmaine 5y ago
      The first one won’t be crewed, and there’s no way that’s going to be ready by 2022. So 2024 will be unmanned. Maybe 2026 will be the first crewed test mission, but 2028 is more likely. But we’re still talking aspirational Elon-time. If I were betting money, I’d say the 2030’s is more realistic. Note that they have done zero work on building a anything other than the rocket body to get there. Making the interior volume habitable for 2 years of interplanetary travel is going to be non-trivial.

fallingknife 5y ago

Yeah he really fooled all those Tesla and spacex investors into those massive returns. They must be so pissed.

fastball 5y ago
They might not be but the TSLAQ people are still chomping at the bit.

nbardy 5y ago

Elons estimates aren't about being accurate.

systemvoltage 5y ago

I don’t get Elon hate just the way I don’t get fanboyism and cult following. Neither side provides an objective and truthful representation of reality. No single personality can be 100% perfect. Let’s not ignore pretty much the entire world changing revolution of EVs and reusable rocketry, while focusing on the guy’s public persona and how he behaves that’s apparent to us and project what he must be like in general. Seems deeply and profoundly unfair. Why can’t someone have flaws which is ok to point out, but then ignore their accomplishments. Opposite also stands! Fanboys of Elon think he is some kind of a messiah to save the world from global collapse but turn a blind eye to his rather rude behavior? It’s like populism has a reverse backside of the coin.

pcl 5y ago
It in response to a post in which the author said they wanted to revisit joining Neuralink because hopefully now their culture is more in line with Musk’s public persona. And the post ended with praise for Musk’s projects. That doesn’t read as “haters gonna hate” to me, but rather as a narrow criticism of just the one aspect of Musk’s businesses that was brought up.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mulcahey 5y ago
IMO silent majority has pretty balanced view of him and just doesn’t care to participate in a holy war praising or hating on the guy. Social media and regular media bias towards the polar opinions, as with anything else. History respects Edison, Jobs, Tesla, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Hughes for what the accomplished while acknowledging their individual flaws. I think Musk will be remember similarly. Depending how successful his ventures are over the coming century he might even be remembered more than any of them.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  It's an interesting observation. Personally, when I look back at giants and read their biographies, I find the most interesting bits usually about how they were motivated, what drove them, how they overcame challenges and hopelessness, how they forged business relations - I think the least interesting part is their personal life and what they did to piss someone off or what they tweeted/told publicly. The latter is just typical soap opera of details that provide little value to me. The latest Steve Jobs movie primarily focused on the melodrama of his personal relationships and offered literally nothing about what made Apple succesful.

disillusioned 5y ago

Those that work for him call it "the impossible ask": Musk will basically spin through the engineering floors of SpaceX and push the team for something that's functionally impossible. Whether this strategy motivates brilliance to emerge is probably not _terribly_ in dispute: they do get results. The "at what cost" element and the burnout and other impacts... those are more tricky to weigh.

inglor_cz 5y ago

" a total disregard for safety of both his customers and his workers" At least in the case of SpaceX, they do not seem to be as reckless as you paint them. After 20 years in space industry, they have 0 fatalities on record, which is uncommon for a corporation of this size and history. And they scrub launches whenever they are concerned about weather or anything off-nominal that their sensors indicate. Which led to an excellent safety record for Falcon 9s once the technology matured.

heymijo 5y ago
Gwynne Shotwell runs the day to day at SpaceX. She hasn’t gotten a ton of press but it’s clear she is a key reason for the successes you described above. Which Musk can take some credit for—-hiring well and not getting in her way.

spoonjim 5y ago

Musk’s public persona is: the guy without whom nobody would know the names Tesla and SpaceX. As noxious as his personality seems to be, he does deliver.

mettamage 5y ago

> but not deeply understanding it enough to provide reasonable estimates There are enough senior software engineers in this world that will have a crazy hard time making a good estimate. There was this HN comment once that mentioned that learning how to estimate work is it's entire own discipline. It can be done and trained, according to that comment, but the comment also seemed to imply that it seems very unusual to do so. I can't find the comment unfortunately, I read it years ago here.