5 ms·

They are here, the publicly known nodes alone on lightning have 1.2+k BTC locked in [1], that's ignoring all the private channels which form the majority of the

They are here, the publicly known nodes alone on lightning have 1.2+k BTC locked in [1], that's ignoring all the private channels which form the majority of the channels (private channels are the end-user channels which don't route transactions themselves and are not broadcast publicly). We have easy to use wallets [2], easy ways to run lightning nodes [3]. And if you look at the average transaction value, you can see that the blockchain itself is acting more of a settlement layer rather than "coffee transactions" as it should [4]. 1: https://1ml.com/ https://1ml.com/ 2: https://phoenix.acinq.co/ https://phoenix.acinq.co/ 3: https://getumbrel.com/ https://getumbrel.com/ 4: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionvalue-btc-xrp.html https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionvalue-btc-xr...

wmf 5y ago
the blockchain itself is acting more of a settlement layer That is a sign of failure.
- sennight 5y ago
  What is a sign of success, multicasting every transaction in the world and storing it on a public ledger? I don't remember that being in the white paper.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  Becoming the most trusted decentralized worldwide settlement layer is considered a failure now? Many of the cryptos that claim to scale to thousands of tps on layer 1 are all sacrificing decentralization to achieve it, at which point, I might as well use Paypal/Visa. There's no point in being able to scale to those levels in theory if in practice no one uses them.
  - riffraff 5y ago
    > Becoming the most trusted decentralized worldwide settlement layer is considered a failure now? it is, if the original goal was to be something else. If you start a marathon and stop to eat the greatest hot dog ever made, it wouldn't be considered a successful run, although you can say "but it was the best!" and be happy about it.
    - hungryforcodes 5y ago
      Huh, so every startup thats ever pivoted -- including for example Instagram, AirBnB, and Twitter -- are failures huh? Interesting.
      - xorcist 5y ago
        Not sure if it can be called a pivot when it was in the original release of the software. Payment channels aren't in the white paper but they were in the first public release and had dedicated opcodes. That first implementation wasn't very practical nor was it secure. The fact that modern payment channels are implemented with other opcodes may be a pivot in implementation but not in concept.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        Startups have a duty to their shareholders to make money, whereas Bitcoin has at least a nominal duty to its inventor[0] and its whitepaper. There's nothing wrong, though, with someone taking the open source code and creating LightningCoin from it, though. That would be the equivalent of a pivot. [0] http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/02/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-paper/ http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/02/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-p...
        nullc 5y ago
        Payment channels were invented by Satoshi and actually baked into the transaction format from day one-- it's why transactions have locktimes and sequence numbers.
      - riffraff 5y ago
        the company is successful, the original project is failed. Twitter is a successful company, but Odeo was a failed product. Bitcoin was supposed to be much more than it currently is, and the "success" of it is a product of continuous goalpost shifting.
    - gverrilla 5y ago
      it's not a marathon, but a permanent olympics
- rocqua 5y ago
  The nice thing about using blockchain for settlement is that (using lightning) you don't actually need to wait for the settlement to clear before you are certain you own funds.
- vmception 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on your perspective? I must admit that I don't use layer2 solutions and many people that think they are, are not (ie. users of Polygon's Proof of Stake network instead of their Plasma network), but I appreciate the progress on those layer2 solutions and actively support the bridges to them
  - wmf 5y ago
    Layer 2 is more complex (pretty much by definition) but has no countervailing benefits compared to a scalable layer 1 chain.

wmf 5y ago

the blockchain itself is acting more of a settlement layer That is a sign of failure.

sennight 5y ago
What is a sign of success, multicasting every transaction in the world and storing it on a public ledger? I don't remember that being in the white paper.
rawtxapp 5y ago
Becoming the most trusted decentralized worldwide settlement layer is considered a failure now? Many of the cryptos that claim to scale to thousands of tps on layer 1 are all sacrificing decentralization to achieve it, at which point, I might as well use Paypal/Visa. There's no point in being able to scale to those levels in theory if in practice no one uses them.
- riffraff 5y ago
  > Becoming the most trusted decentralized worldwide settlement layer is considered a failure now? it is, if the original goal was to be something else. If you start a marathon and stop to eat the greatest hot dog ever made, it wouldn't be considered a successful run, although you can say "but it was the best!" and be happy about it.
  - hungryforcodes 5y ago
    Huh, so every startup thats ever pivoted -- including for example Instagram, AirBnB, and Twitter -- are failures huh? Interesting.
    - xorcist 5y ago
      Not sure if it can be called a pivot when it was in the original release of the software. Payment channels aren't in the white paper but they were in the first public release and had dedicated opcodes. That first implementation wasn't very practical nor was it secure. The fact that modern payment channels are implemented with other opcodes may be a pivot in implementation but not in concept.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      Startups have a duty to their shareholders to make money, whereas Bitcoin has at least a nominal duty to its inventor[0] and its whitepaper. There's nothing wrong, though, with someone taking the open source code and creating LightningCoin from it, though. That would be the equivalent of a pivot. [0] http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/02/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-paper/ http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/02/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-p...
      - nullc 5y ago
        Payment channels were invented by Satoshi and actually baked into the transaction format from day one-- it's why transactions have locktimes and sequence numbers.
    - riffraff 5y ago
      the company is successful, the original project is failed. Twitter is a successful company, but Odeo was a failed product. Bitcoin was supposed to be much more than it currently is, and the "success" of it is a product of continuous goalpost shifting.
  - gverrilla 5y ago
    it's not a marathon, but a permanent olympics
rocqua 5y ago
The nice thing about using blockchain for settlement is that (using lightning) you don't actually need to wait for the settlement to clear before you are certain you own funds.
vmception 5y ago
Can you elaborate on your perspective? I must admit that I don't use layer2 solutions and many people that think they are, are not (ie. users of Polygon's Proof of Stake network instead of their Plasma network), but I appreciate the progress on those layer2 solutions and actively support the bridges to them
- wmf 5y ago
  Layer 2 is more complex (pretty much by definition) but has no countervailing benefits compared to a scalable layer 1 chain.