5 ms·

> I will not send you personal contact info of anyone for anything without a warrant/suponea Unless you're (a) swimming in money, (b) have some kind of strong

> I will not send you personal contact info of anyone for anything without a warrant/suponea Unless you're (a) swimming in money, (b) have some kind of strong (and free?) legal/financial support behind you to battle such a thing, (c) are not in the US, or (d) are so poor that you have nothing to lose anyway, this sounds like a rather incredible claim. Most people facing potentially massive lawsuits would probably cave.

badRNG 5y ago
IANAL, but since you aren't actually in court, nor are you benefiting financially from the situation, couldn't you just...lie and say you don't have the contact information of anyone you sent it to? Or hell, just lie and say you didn't send it to anyone?
- dataflow 5y ago
  IANAL either but I would imagine if they gather any past or future data to suggest otherwise you might paint a target on your back. Not sure if there are any terms around that per se buy at least if it does come to a court case, I imagine having lied probably wouldn't help your case.
- batch12 5y ago
  Or if published publically provide the name of everyone everywhere...
dylan604 5y ago
A case like this usually means you've screwed so badly, you're going out of business anyways. Again, cops do not enter a house without a warrant, and lawyers don't get anything for free without getting a subponea. It's not a hard thing to stand up to make the opfor at least do the leg work, and then make it as expensive for them as you can. Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos. And if you need legal assistance to do something like interpret the wording sufficiently accurately to avoid running into further legal trouble, expensive for you as well.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  > Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos. Do this only if you want to catch a contempt of court charge.
- Uehreka 5y ago
  I see this kind of thinking on HN a lot (though to be fair, it’s not limited to HN). If a court asks for data, you give them the data they ask for, or you straight-up sue them if the data is somehow privileged or the request is unconstitutional. There is no space for individual cleverness when dealing with legal stuff, and judges do not take kindly to “bUt i FoLlOwEd ThE InStRuCtIoNs!”-style defenses.
  - fogihujy 5y ago
    Many people seem to beleive the justice system behaves like a set of if...then clauses. I blame the mass production of crappy US courtroom drama - people start thinking it's how the real world works.
e1g 5y ago
It’s tempting to think that being “right” - in principle, objectively, or even legally - gives superpowers over legal proceedings. It doesn’t. Even a brief brush against targeted litigation will clear up this confusion quickly and painfully. You’ll be broke, and therefore defeated by default, long before you’ll be vindicated.
- brobdingnagians 5y ago
  This opens up an interesting discussion point. Is there a way to reform the legal system to make it depend less on how much money you have? edit: I like our current legal system, but I know Europe has the (Roman/Napoleonic?) inquisitorial system, if any Europeans could contribute and note if that has different outcomes? Or just any wild ideas on how to tweak the system to give more equal footing that isn't based on money.
  - eru 5y ago
    Actually basing the legal system on money might not be the worst. Certainly better than basing it on influence and connections. About your question: you might like this paper https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1546&context=fss_papers https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti... It doesn't offer any answers, and it's about criminal justice; but it's good food for thought about unintended consequences. See also the excellent http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Legal%20Systems/LegalSystemsContents.htm http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Legal%20Systems/LegalSystemsCo... as parodied in https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/30/legal-systems-very-different-from-ours-because-i-just-made-them-up/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/30/legal-systems-very-dif... and reviewed in https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-systems-very-different-from-ours/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-syst...
  - slaymaker1907 5y ago
    I think one thing that would help would be to broaden the number of cases where legal fees can be awarded. Another thing that is not currently the case would be to work on simplifying the legal system to the point where a well educated person can take some time studying the law, at least well enough to defend themselves against baseless accusations. The ABA has made it a point to lobby states in order to increase the number of situations where professional lawyers are required (kind of like what TurboTax has done with the tax code). Even with a simplified laws and legal proceedings, obviously not everyone would be in a position to defend themselves. However, many of those people could probably find a legally astute relative or friend to help them. There will always be a need for public defenders or something similar, though, since not everyone has a good support network. To be honest though, I think the only really long term solution is for radical reform to the economy in general is the abolishment of private property. Private property, including intellectual property in particular, is always going to give disproportionate power to the wealthy. We should reward people for actual labor (not necessarily the same amount for the same hours), not because they already have giant stacks of cash.
BrianHenryIE 5y ago
It seems Aaron Toponce is in the US (UT) and the company is in the UK. Hypothetically, he were in the EU, I understand it would be illegal to provide the personal information as requested (i.e. of anyone who had not explicitly consented to the transfer of their data to an explicitly named third party). Maybe there's a way to give the GDPR more teeth by punishing businesses who operate in the EU "legally" while outside the EU are not treating people as well.
- midasuni 5y ago
  U.K. is still covered by gdpr
  - overscore 5y ago
    The GDPR no longer applies to the UK (although it does apply to UK organisations operating in our marketing to the EU). From ICO: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/dp-at-the-end-of-the-transition-period/transition-period-faqs/#gdpr https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/dp-at-the-end-of-the-tr...
    - midasuni 5y ago
      “ The GDPR has been incorporated into UK data protection law as the UK GDPR – so in practice there is little change to the core data protection principles, rights and obligations found in the UK GDPR. ”
      - overscore 5y ago
        Right - four months in, there hasn't yet been any divergence, but the GDPR no longer applies to the UK. You don't have recourse to EU enforcement measures or courts.
eru 5y ago
Alas, not being in the US does not protect against the American legal system.
- midasuni 5y ago
  The outrage many Americans on HN extol over the GDPR is amusing when it’s US law that has been exported globally for decades.
  - eru 5y ago
    Well, I don't like neither US nor EU meddling with people in other parts of the world.
    - midasuni 5y ago
      EU doesn’t meddle as long as you have nothing to do with the the EU. Kim Dot Com on the other hand...

badRNG 5y ago

IANAL, but since you aren't actually in court, nor are you benefiting financially from the situation, couldn't you just...lie and say you don't have the contact information of anyone you sent it to? Or hell, just lie and say you didn't send it to anyone?

dataflow 5y ago
IANAL either but I would imagine if they gather any past or future data to suggest otherwise you might paint a target on your back. Not sure if there are any terms around that per se buy at least if it does come to a court case, I imagine having lied probably wouldn't help your case.
batch12 5y ago
Or if published publically provide the name of everyone everywhere...

dylan604 5y ago

A case like this usually means you've screwed so badly, you're going out of business anyways. Again, cops do not enter a house without a warrant, and lawyers don't get anything for free without getting a subponea. It's not a hard thing to stand up to make the opfor at least do the leg work, and then make it as expensive for them as you can. Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos.

MattGaiser 5y ago
> Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos. And if you need legal assistance to do something like interpret the wording sufficiently accurately to avoid running into further legal trouble, expensive for you as well.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
> Once you do receive a subponea, you get to then see exactly how it is worded. Converting all of the data to hex or binary, and then printing it out at a 4pt font on greenbar paper with one character per line might not be explicitly stated as something not to do. If the request comes in as "delivered exactly as it is stored electronically" providing binary would seem apropos. Do this only if you want to catch a contempt of court charge.
Uehreka 5y ago
I see this kind of thinking on HN a lot (though to be fair, it’s not limited to HN). If a court asks for data, you give them the data they ask for, or you straight-up sue them if the data is somehow privileged or the request is unconstitutional. There is no space for individual cleverness when dealing with legal stuff, and judges do not take kindly to “bUt i FoLlOwEd ThE InStRuCtIoNs!”-style defenses.
- fogihujy 5y ago
  Many people seem to beleive the justice system behaves like a set of if...then clauses. I blame the mass production of crappy US courtroom drama - people start thinking it's how the real world works.

e1g 5y ago

It’s tempting to think that being “right” - in principle, objectively, or even legally - gives superpowers over legal proceedings. It doesn’t. Even a brief brush against targeted litigation will clear up this confusion quickly and painfully. You’ll be broke, and therefore defeated by default, long before you’ll be vindicated.

brobdingnagians 5y ago
This opens up an interesting discussion point. Is there a way to reform the legal system to make it depend less on how much money you have? edit: I like our current legal system, but I know Europe has the (Roman/Napoleonic?) inquisitorial system, if any Europeans could contribute and note if that has different outcomes? Or just any wild ideas on how to tweak the system to give more equal footing that isn't based on money.
- eru 5y ago
  Actually basing the legal system on money might not be the worst. Certainly better than basing it on influence and connections. About your question: you might like this paper https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1546&context=fss_papers https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti... It doesn't offer any answers, and it's about criminal justice; but it's good food for thought about unintended consequences. See also the excellent http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Legal%20Systems/LegalSystemsContents.htm http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Legal%20Systems/LegalSystemsCo... as parodied in https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/30/legal-systems-very-different-from-ours-because-i-just-made-them-up/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/30/legal-systems-very-dif... and reviewed in https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-systems-very-different-from-ours/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/13/book-review-legal-syst...
- slaymaker1907 5y ago
  I think one thing that would help would be to broaden the number of cases where legal fees can be awarded. Another thing that is not currently the case would be to work on simplifying the legal system to the point where a well educated person can take some time studying the law, at least well enough to defend themselves against baseless accusations. The ABA has made it a point to lobby states in order to increase the number of situations where professional lawyers are required (kind of like what TurboTax has done with the tax code). Even with a simplified laws and legal proceedings, obviously not everyone would be in a position to defend themselves. However, many of those people could probably find a legally astute relative or friend to help them. There will always be a need for public defenders or something similar, though, since not everyone has a good support network. To be honest though, I think the only really long term solution is for radical reform to the economy in general is the abolishment of private property. Private property, including intellectual property in particular, is always going to give disproportionate power to the wealthy. We should reward people for actual labor (not necessarily the same amount for the same hours), not because they already have giant stacks of cash.

BrianHenryIE 5y ago

It seems Aaron Toponce is in the US (UT) and the company is in the UK. Hypothetically, he were in the EU, I understand it would be illegal to provide the personal information as requested (i.e. of anyone who had not explicitly consented to the transfer of their data to an explicitly named third party). Maybe there's a way to give the GDPR more teeth by punishing businesses who operate in the EU "legally" while outside the EU are not treating people as well.

midasuni 5y ago
U.K. is still covered by gdpr
- overscore 5y ago
  The GDPR no longer applies to the UK (although it does apply to UK organisations operating in our marketing to the EU). From ICO: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/dp-at-the-end-of-the-transition-period/transition-period-faqs/#gdpr https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/dp-at-the-end-of-the-tr...
  - midasuni 5y ago
    “ The GDPR has been incorporated into UK data protection law as the UK GDPR – so in practice there is little change to the core data protection principles, rights and obligations found in the UK GDPR. ”
    - overscore 5y ago
      Right - four months in, there hasn't yet been any divergence, but the GDPR no longer applies to the UK. You don't have recourse to EU enforcement measures or courts.

eru 5y ago

Alas, not being in the US does not protect against the American legal system.

midasuni 5y ago
The outrage many Americans on HN extol over the GDPR is amusing when it’s US law that has been exported globally for decades.
- eru 5y ago
  Well, I don't like neither US nor EU meddling with people in other parts of the world.
  - midasuni 5y ago
    EU doesn’t meddle as long as you have nothing to do with the the EU. Kim Dot Com on the other hand...