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> When Bitcoin started, however, profiting off Bitcoin was not the primary goal. Everyone in the crypto world believed that this virtual coin would one day chan

by trts 5y ago

> When Bitcoin started, however, profiting off Bitcoin was not the primary goal. Everyone in the crypto world believed that this virtual coin would one day change how we use money. It will free us from governments and banks’ control over our financial system. But that goal no longer exists in the crypto world. stopped reading here. People have hoped to profit from bitcoin since the beginning. And while there probably aren't a lot of crypto people thinking that BTC will become the medium of (common) exchange, ending government fiat control of currencies is certainly a primary concern among people in the space, and many are building "layer 2" solutions (such as Lightning) with the goal of facilitating smaller and faster transactions and using bitcoin (or other) as the settlement layer.

VHRanger 5y ago
How cute, people still think lightning network is a serious attempt rather than plausible deniability to keep the crypto speculation charade going. Just 18 more months, my friends. It'll work as designed in 18 months from wherever you are in time.
- aftbit 5y ago
  It works as designed right now, but it's still designed for crypto nerds, not normal people. I've gotten an open balanced lightning channel using electrum but it was not easy or cheap.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    Designed for crypto nerds is the wrong way to describe it. It's designed to be a fundamental building block that can be configured and built on top of in many different ways, some of which will be ease of use for a non technical end user, though that will still take a lot of work. It might be the case that self custody of coins is just unavoidably hard, and only those willing to go to some abnormal effort can realistically "be their own bank". But no crypto has solved this. Self custody is just intrinsically complicated and riddled with pitfalls.
- latch 5y ago
  Having been on the receiving end of a "How cute", it's extremely condescending and obviously violates HN guidelines. (the entire comment is just a "shallow dismissal")
- rattlesnakedave 5y ago
  How cute, people still thinking lightning network doesn’t work. Just 18 more months, my friends, then Bitcoin will crash and prove all of us HN boomers correct.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  The price of BTC will continue to rise as long as people believe that it can become a currency or respected asset class in the future -- but only so long as that doesn't happen. Treated as a currency, if folks actually started to spend it, velocity would go up and its value would inflate away with no central authority to jump in and help. As an asset, at some point, all the money that will go into it will go into it, and it won't grow anymore, the get-rich-quick game will be over, and people will start to sell, and the price will crater. This can even by triggered by the $30 billion dollars in new money required to pay miners each year. LN is perfect because unless you squint it's a plausible attempt to solve some of the limitations of the underlying asset. But here in reality, opening and closing a single LN channel for everyone on earth would take over 150 years. It would cost 1/3 of a trillion dollars in transaction fees. If you broadcast an old wallet state you'll lose your coins. If any intermediate node goes down, it'll lock up your funds. It suffers from terrible illiquidity. The same number of channels now as 3 years ago. Usage is not growing. It's not a viable solution. It is, however, great distraction. Just 18 more months!
  - maclured 5y ago
    I don't think so. Once people realise they can buy real stuff with cryptos without being on the darknet (obligatory mention to particl), they'll see that they actually are a real. useful currency that doesn't need to be converted back to fiat.
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    Check out strike app. It’s an lightning based $US denominated peer to peer payment app (ala Venmo and cash app) and lightning wallet (allows paying lightning invoices). Multiple country (eventually all, as it relies on BTC LN network for settlement). It’s as easy to use as cash app, and doesn’t even mention bitcoin at all. No sir, not 18 months. There is innovation everywhere.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      That actually addresses none of my criticisms of LN though. Why would I want to pay $20-40 to open a channel to obtain the same functionality I get free of charge from my existing dollar denominated Cash App, Cash App? Not to mention when I do, I don't have to pay taxes on every transaction. This is another worse solution, except with crypto.
_heimdall 5y ago
No one actively working on bitcoin actually expects it to take government control out of money. It simply isn't possible, no grass roots digital project can strip such a fundamental power from the government once it already has it. If that were ever a serious possibility the government would simply ban the project all together, or effectively take it over with its own version of government run bitcoin. Also don't let Lightning fool you. It still doesn't work and is forever 18 months from ready. Its developed and run by a private company and is very centralized, how is that better than fiat or anywhere near what bitcoin's white paper laid out?
- Vecr 5y ago
  First, are you not thinking of Liquid instead? That is run and developed by a private company. Lightning does have some big nodes, but in general the interconnection is pretty good, as far as I can see [0]. If you want to route payments, it's not enough to just have channels going to you, but you also need to have outgoing channels to balance the flow, and you are on the hook for the closing fees, so that should help with stability. [0]: https://explorer.acinq.co/ https://explorer.acinq.co/

by trts 5y ago

VHRanger 5y ago

How cute, people still think lightning network is a serious attempt rather than plausible deniability to keep the crypto speculation charade going. Just 18 more months, my friends. It'll work as designed in 18 months from wherever you are in time.

aftbit 5y ago
It works as designed right now, but it's still designed for crypto nerds, not normal people. I've gotten an open balanced lightning channel using electrum but it was not easy or cheap.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Designed for crypto nerds is the wrong way to describe it. It's designed to be a fundamental building block that can be configured and built on top of in many different ways, some of which will be ease of use for a non technical end user, though that will still take a lot of work. It might be the case that self custody of coins is just unavoidably hard, and only those willing to go to some abnormal effort can realistically "be their own bank". But no crypto has solved this. Self custody is just intrinsically complicated and riddled with pitfalls.
latch 5y ago
Having been on the receiving end of a "How cute", it's extremely condescending and obviously violates HN guidelines. (the entire comment is just a "shallow dismissal")
rattlesnakedave 5y ago
How cute, people still thinking lightning network doesn’t work. Just 18 more months, my friends, then Bitcoin will crash and prove all of us HN boomers correct.
arcticbull 5y ago
The price of BTC will continue to rise as long as people believe that it can become a currency or respected asset class in the future -- but only so long as that doesn't happen. Treated as a currency, if folks actually started to spend it, velocity would go up and its value would inflate away with no central authority to jump in and help. As an asset, at some point, all the money that will go into it will go into it, and it won't grow anymore, the get-rich-quick game will be over, and people will start to sell, and the price will crater. This can even by triggered by the $30 billion dollars in new money required to pay miners each year. LN is perfect because unless you squint it's a plausible attempt to solve some of the limitations of the underlying asset. But here in reality, opening and closing a single LN channel for everyone on earth would take over 150 years. It would cost 1/3 of a trillion dollars in transaction fees. If you broadcast an old wallet state you'll lose your coins. If any intermediate node goes down, it'll lock up your funds. It suffers from terrible illiquidity. The same number of channels now as 3 years ago. Usage is not growing. It's not a viable solution. It is, however, great distraction. Just 18 more months!
- maclured 5y ago
  I don't think so. Once people realise they can buy real stuff with cryptos without being on the darknet (obligatory mention to particl), they'll see that they actually are a real. useful currency that doesn't need to be converted back to fiat.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  Check out strike app. It’s an lightning based $US denominated peer to peer payment app (ala Venmo and cash app) and lightning wallet (allows paying lightning invoices). Multiple country (eventually all, as it relies on BTC LN network for settlement). It’s as easy to use as cash app, and doesn’t even mention bitcoin at all. No sir, not 18 months. There is innovation everywhere.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    That actually addresses none of my criticisms of LN though. Why would I want to pay $20-40 to open a channel to obtain the same functionality I get free of charge from my existing dollar denominated Cash App, Cash App? Not to mention when I do, I don't have to pay taxes on every transaction. This is another worse solution, except with crypto.

_heimdall 5y ago

No one actively working on bitcoin actually expects it to take government control out of money. It simply isn't possible, no grass roots digital project can strip such a fundamental power from the government once it already has it. If that were ever a serious possibility the government would simply ban the project all together, or effectively take it over with its own version of government run bitcoin. Also don't let Lightning fool you. It still doesn't work and is forever 18 months from ready. Its developed and run by a private company and is very centralized, how is that better than fiat or anywhere near what bitcoin's white paper laid out?

Vecr 5y ago
First, are you not thinking of Liquid instead? That is run and developed by a private company. Lightning does have some big nodes, but in general the interconnection is pretty good, as far as I can see [0]. If you want to route payments, it's not enough to just have channels going to you, but you also need to have outgoing channels to balance the flow, and you are on the hook for the closing fees, so that should help with stability. [0]: https://explorer.acinq.co/ https://explorer.acinq.co/