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I believe the issue is that the range of activities you can engage in is effectively limited to the roundtrip range of the vehicle since there is such a high re

I believe the issue is that the range of activities you can engage in is effectively limited to the roundtrip range of the vehicle since there is such a high refueling time. ....and so people with families can only reasonably buy an electric vehicle as a second car, so that they can restrict its usage to local commuting.

mumblemumble 6y ago
Alternatively, get it as an only car, and rent a car for longer trips. I don't know how the economics work out for that - it probably depends a lot on both the family and the car - but, based on my experience of many years not owning a car myself, and going to the Hertz down the street when I needed one, I wouldn't be surprised if it can be made to work out reasonably well.
- dham 6y ago
  That's what we do except we don't have an electric car. Just a Toyota Corolla paid off. Gas for it is literally a rounding error and we rent a van when we go on trips. Much cheaper that way.
- pfranz 6y ago
  Ignoring EVs, it's often cheaper to rent for road trips. There are a bunch of other benefits; they're more consistently maintained, if there is an issue there is the option of swapping cars, you can rent for the size you need for that specific trip. This prevents you from overbuying when getting a commuter car that you'd use for rare stuff. The only downside to renting is they may not have inventory on holiday weekends. I've never had this problem.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Another issue is that you’re limited to what they stock for rentals. While I drive nice cars at home, I pretty much have to exclusively drive crappy econoboxes for long distance rentals. And I’ve found that paying for a nicer car is worth it for road trips but hard to get a nice car - they just don’t stock them!
    - pfranz 6y ago
      While I do see mostly economy cars on the lots, the only time they gave me a smaller car than I had reserved was during a freak snowstorm. Weeks ahead I had explicitly reserved a 4x4, I called to confirm before I got on the plane, but when I showed up they could only offer me their smallest economy car saying they gave those cars to preferred members (cue Seinfeld's rant on reservations). Every other time they either push me to upgrade, or for whatever reason upgrade my car for free. I usually decline because if it's just me with a carry-on I'd prefer not to pay the extra cost of gas. When I've needed a full-size/SUV I've never had a problem. Although, one other issue is the widest selection is near an airport. If you're taking a road trip and not flying you may have to drive to one.
  - macintux 6y ago
    > The only downside to renting is they may not have inventory on holiday weekends. I've never had this problem. You will this year if you try, given what a disaster the rental agency inventories are right now.
  - testesttest 6y ago
    Another downside is they are poorly equiped. No cold weather gear, no camping gear, no kid entertainment. Hell, I had one without a jack and ended up waiting four hours for a tow truck to change a flat.
    - pfranz 6y ago
      I thought I remember my SUV rentals having the upgrades for screens in the back and other bells and whistles. Most kids in the past 5+ years have their own tablets or phones, anyway. In my experience, the bigger the vehicle, the more likely it's a new model year (outside of transport). I'm sure certain things like a winch might be hard to get. I know I've specifically requested 4x4 a few times and I've never had the need to ask for tire chains. If you have a particular need, like towing something or you like to go mudding, you'll probably need your own vehicle. That's just unacceptable to not provide a jack. I know some vehicles, like Mini Coopers, have run flats and don't even offer a spare or jack. That always made me uncomfortable (and it sucks to pay way more for tires with a worse ride).
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    I've been getting month-long long-term rentals from Hertz while settling in in a new residence. About two thirds of the cars I've rented had issues with tires that are balding and leaking air. I wouldn't call that "well-maintained," and I'd have concerns about renting one for a long road trip. I now carry a portable air compressor in the trunk of every car I rent.
    - pfranz 6y ago
      That sounds like a huge liability bomb. I had a mechanic that would regularly tell me tires are the most important safety feature since it's literally the only thing between you and the ground. I would think any insurance claim would be itching to point back to the rental agency. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/5-tips-on-buying-a-used-rental-car/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/5-tips-on-buying-a-used-rental-... "rental companies typically keep their units on strict maintenance schedules. They can’t afford the downtime from unscheduled repairs, so you can be fairly sure that the vehicle is in top shape." That's been in line with my experience. I'm not brand loyal. In general, the discount brands do have older cars. The name-brands usually had current or last year models. The larger vehicles were almost always brand new unless they were specific to hauling. The only time that hasn't been true was when renting in Iceland. The vehicle was at least 10 years old (maybe 15 or 20?) and we were driving it to remote places. So I was a bit concerned about breaking down and access to help. Thankfully, it never had an issue.
  - natch 6y ago
    The other problem is you can only rent dog-slow cars.
    - ehnto 6y ago
      Are you road-tripping to the Nordschliefe?
      - natch 5y ago
        No but I’ve been ruined for sad ICE cars.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  If you live in an urban area, rentals are convenient. If you are in the suburbs, it's not as simple as you will need a ride to/from the rental lot. You may also be limited by the drop-off/pickup times. Road trips often have very early departures or very late returns. I have a headache just thinking about re-installing 3 car seats for every weekend hiking trip... Things become significantly more painful when you have kids.
  - dublin 6y ago
    Huh? There are at least a dozen rental car pickup and return lots in the suburbs of NW Austin - most of them Enterprise, but several other brands as well. In general, I never wait more than 10-20 minutes to pick up a rental, and have never had limited pickup/dropoff times. (To be fair, this is mostly when one of our cars is in the shop - I haven't done it for holiday trips.) Seriously, picking up a rental car, at least in my suburbs, is easier and quicker than going to the grocery store.
pmoriarty 6y ago
"the range of activities you can engage in is effectively limited to the roundtrip range of the vehicle since there is such a high refueling time" Whatever happened to the plan to have facilities where you can drop off your discharged batteries and immediately replace them with charged ones?
- m463 6y ago
  I think it was technically possible, and proven, but turns out nobody really wanted it. It would also have been expensive and a logistical nightmare. What if you had a brand-new car. Would you want to take a trip and end up with a 3-year old battery? What if you had a 5-year old car. Would tesla want to give you a new battery? how would the cost difference be resolved? I think people didn't want to swap their pristine batteries for old ones. And people with old batteries didn't want to pay for new ones. and the swap cost would be pretty large.
  - msrenee 6y ago
    I'm not a sparky because high voltage is terrifying to me. These batteries are not something your gas station employee is supposed to handle. Please correct me if I'm misinformed, but my understanding is that you'd have to have someone qualified to deal with these voltages to change out the batteries and that would be cost-prohibitive.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      I don't see why that should be an issue. I'm not an electrician and regularly plug and unplug 415v three phase devices. The process as demonstrated by Tesla was automated too.
    - m463 6y ago
      It was done by driving the car over a bay that would remove and replace the battery from below automatically. this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
  - 6y ago
bryanlarsen 6y ago
We did a 3000km trip (6000km round trip) in an electric vehicle. The computer told us we'd need to make 9 stops to charge in each direction. We ended up stopping 18 times for bathroom, food and sleep stops. The Tesla is a far superior experience for road trips than a gasoline car is.
- bradlys 6y ago
  > The Tesla is a far superior experience for road trips than a gasoline car is. This is hyperbole. If all your stops have very fast electric then you’re going to have a comparable experience (assuming you like long stops). But to say that a Tesla is better than all gasoline cars for road tripping? Hyperbole... We’re nowhere near the level of infrastructure for any electric car to be comparable to gasoline. I can and have filled up in less than five minutes many times. And only made 3 stops over 16+ hour drives (each being under 10 minutes). I would not and could not have made the same amount of time with an electric car. Therefore, not a superior experience as far as I’m concerned...
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    Also, in a petrol car you are literally never worried about running out of fuel. I can confidently take detours, drive a bit faster if I want to, run the AC/heater on max, and I am 100% sure I will always find a filling station when I need to. I don't have to "plan" my refuelling stops at all. I stop whenever I feel hungry or need a bathroom break. There will always be a petrol station at every stop. Another benefit comes into play when I am going to a less populated/remote place. For example the Ladakh region in India where petrol stations are far and few between. Just fill up a few 5 liter cans with petrol and you have a spare 500-600km range in your trunk. Cheap, easy and efficient.
    - macintux 6y ago
      > Also, in a petrol car you are literally never worried about running out of fuel. Slightly hyperbolic. I was on a long trip through Arkansas one night, and was very worried about finding a gas station. These days, with smartphones and more 24 hour stations it's less of a concern, but if you're not careful it's certainly still possible to end up somewhere without a gas station in easy range. The world is a big place.

mumblemumble 6y ago

Alternatively, get it as an only car, and rent a car for longer trips. I don't know how the economics work out for that - it probably depends a lot on both the family and the car - but, based on my experience of many years not owning a car myself, and going to the Hertz down the street when I needed one, I wouldn't be surprised if it can be made to work out reasonably well.

dham 6y ago
That's what we do except we don't have an electric car. Just a Toyota Corolla paid off. Gas for it is literally a rounding error and we rent a van when we go on trips. Much cheaper that way.
pfranz 6y ago
Ignoring EVs, it's often cheaper to rent for road trips. There are a bunch of other benefits; they're more consistently maintained, if there is an issue there is the option of swapping cars, you can rent for the size you need for that specific trip. This prevents you from overbuying when getting a commuter car that you'd use for rare stuff. The only downside to renting is they may not have inventory on holiday weekends. I've never had this problem.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Another issue is that you’re limited to what they stock for rentals. While I drive nice cars at home, I pretty much have to exclusively drive crappy econoboxes for long distance rentals. And I’ve found that paying for a nicer car is worth it for road trips but hard to get a nice car - they just don’t stock them!
  - pfranz 6y ago
    While I do see mostly economy cars on the lots, the only time they gave me a smaller car than I had reserved was during a freak snowstorm. Weeks ahead I had explicitly reserved a 4x4, I called to confirm before I got on the plane, but when I showed up they could only offer me their smallest economy car saying they gave those cars to preferred members (cue Seinfeld's rant on reservations). Every other time they either push me to upgrade, or for whatever reason upgrade my car for free. I usually decline because if it's just me with a carry-on I'd prefer not to pay the extra cost of gas. When I've needed a full-size/SUV I've never had a problem. Although, one other issue is the widest selection is near an airport. If you're taking a road trip and not flying you may have to drive to one.
- macintux 6y ago
  > The only downside to renting is they may not have inventory on holiday weekends. I've never had this problem. You will this year if you try, given what a disaster the rental agency inventories are right now.
- testesttest 6y ago
  Another downside is they are poorly equiped. No cold weather gear, no camping gear, no kid entertainment. Hell, I had one without a jack and ended up waiting four hours for a tow truck to change a flat.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    I thought I remember my SUV rentals having the upgrades for screens in the back and other bells and whistles. Most kids in the past 5+ years have their own tablets or phones, anyway. In my experience, the bigger the vehicle, the more likely it's a new model year (outside of transport). I'm sure certain things like a winch might be hard to get. I know I've specifically requested 4x4 a few times and I've never had the need to ask for tire chains. If you have a particular need, like towing something or you like to go mudding, you'll probably need your own vehicle. That's just unacceptable to not provide a jack. I know some vehicles, like Mini Coopers, have run flats and don't even offer a spare or jack. That always made me uncomfortable (and it sucks to pay way more for tires with a worse ride).
- legerdemain 6y ago
  I've been getting month-long long-term rentals from Hertz while settling in in a new residence. About two thirds of the cars I've rented had issues with tires that are balding and leaking air. I wouldn't call that "well-maintained," and I'd have concerns about renting one for a long road trip. I now carry a portable air compressor in the trunk of every car I rent.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    That sounds like a huge liability bomb. I had a mechanic that would regularly tell me tires are the most important safety feature since it's literally the only thing between you and the ground. I would think any insurance claim would be itching to point back to the rental agency. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/5-tips-on-buying-a-used-rental-car/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/5-tips-on-buying-a-used-rental-... "rental companies typically keep their units on strict maintenance schedules. They can’t afford the downtime from unscheduled repairs, so you can be fairly sure that the vehicle is in top shape." That's been in line with my experience. I'm not brand loyal. In general, the discount brands do have older cars. The name-brands usually had current or last year models. The larger vehicles were almost always brand new unless they were specific to hauling. The only time that hasn't been true was when renting in Iceland. The vehicle was at least 10 years old (maybe 15 or 20?) and we were driving it to remote places. So I was a bit concerned about breaking down and access to help. Thankfully, it never had an issue.
- natch 6y ago
  The other problem is you can only rent dog-slow cars.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    Are you road-tripping to the Nordschliefe?
    - natch 5y ago
      No but I’ve been ruined for sad ICE cars.
koheripbal 6y ago
If you live in an urban area, rentals are convenient. If you are in the suburbs, it's not as simple as you will need a ride to/from the rental lot. You may also be limited by the drop-off/pickup times. Road trips often have very early departures or very late returns. I have a headache just thinking about re-installing 3 car seats for every weekend hiking trip... Things become significantly more painful when you have kids.
- dublin 6y ago
  Huh? There are at least a dozen rental car pickup and return lots in the suburbs of NW Austin - most of them Enterprise, but several other brands as well. In general, I never wait more than 10-20 minutes to pick up a rental, and have never had limited pickup/dropoff times. (To be fair, this is mostly when one of our cars is in the shop - I haven't done it for holiday trips.) Seriously, picking up a rental car, at least in my suburbs, is easier and quicker than going to the grocery store.

pmoriarty 6y ago

"the range of activities you can engage in is effectively limited to the roundtrip range of the vehicle since there is such a high refueling time" Whatever happened to the plan to have facilities where you can drop off your discharged batteries and immediately replace them with charged ones?

m463 6y ago
I think it was technically possible, and proven, but turns out nobody really wanted it. It would also have been expensive and a logistical nightmare. What if you had a brand-new car. Would you want to take a trip and end up with a 3-year old battery? What if you had a 5-year old car. Would tesla want to give you a new battery? how would the cost difference be resolved? I think people didn't want to swap their pristine batteries for old ones. And people with old batteries didn't want to pay for new ones. and the swap cost would be pretty large.
- msrenee 6y ago
  I'm not a sparky because high voltage is terrifying to me. These batteries are not something your gas station employee is supposed to handle. Please correct me if I'm misinformed, but my understanding is that you'd have to have someone qualified to deal with these voltages to change out the batteries and that would be cost-prohibitive.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    I don't see why that should be an issue. I'm not an electrician and regularly plug and unplug 415v three phase devices. The process as demonstrated by Tesla was automated too.
  - m463 6y ago
    It was done by driving the car over a bay that would remove and replace the battery from below automatically. this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
- 6y ago

bryanlarsen 6y ago

We did a 3000km trip (6000km round trip) in an electric vehicle. The computer told us we'd need to make 9 stops to charge in each direction. We ended up stopping 18 times for bathroom, food and sleep stops. The Tesla is a far superior experience for road trips than a gasoline car is.

bradlys 6y ago
> The Tesla is a far superior experience for road trips than a gasoline car is. This is hyperbole. If all your stops have very fast electric then you’re going to have a comparable experience (assuming you like long stops). But to say that a Tesla is better than all gasoline cars for road tripping? Hyperbole... We’re nowhere near the level of infrastructure for any electric car to be comparable to gasoline. I can and have filled up in less than five minutes many times. And only made 3 stops over 16+ hour drives (each being under 10 minutes). I would not and could not have made the same amount of time with an electric car. Therefore, not a superior experience as far as I’m concerned...
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  Also, in a petrol car you are literally never worried about running out of fuel. I can confidently take detours, drive a bit faster if I want to, run the AC/heater on max, and I am 100% sure I will always find a filling station when I need to. I don't have to "plan" my refuelling stops at all. I stop whenever I feel hungry or need a bathroom break. There will always be a petrol station at every stop. Another benefit comes into play when I am going to a less populated/remote place. For example the Ladakh region in India where petrol stations are far and few between. Just fill up a few 5 liter cans with petrol and you have a spare 500-600km range in your trunk. Cheap, easy and efficient.
  - macintux 6y ago
    > Also, in a petrol car you are literally never worried about running out of fuel. Slightly hyperbolic. I was on a long trip through Arkansas one night, and was very worried about finding a gas station. These days, with smartphones and more 24 hour stations it's less of a concern, but if you're not careful it's certainly still possible to end up somewhere without a gas station in easy range. The world is a big place.