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> if you assume that this all powerful God really cares about this stuff Nobody knows what God "cares" about, nor even if "caring" is something God does at all

by smsm42 6y ago

> if you assume that this all powerful God really cares about this stuff Nobody knows what God "cares" about, nor even if "caring" is something God does at all, in a sense that humans do it. It's like comparing human to CPU by clock frequency - these are different things, and clock frequency is a useable measure for a CPU (at least certain designs of CPUs) but quite useless if you want to talk about a human. You can't just bring terminology from one area onto another and expect it automatically to make sense. > Is the God all powerful and all knowing? Yes. > Or literally so stupid that you can defeat the sacred logic Why you think it's "defeating" anything? God is not a CTF contest. You framing it as "defeat" is just your framing, but it's not how Jews see it - they see it as "preserving", not "defeating". > do religious people honestly think that this "trick" works, in a spiritual sense? What you mean by "works"? It certainly works for them. It may not work for you, but if you are neither an observant Jew nor God, who cares if it works for you or not?

gambiting 6y ago
>>What you mean by "works"? Works as in - they believe that they go for their eternal judgement and God says "I clearly said 'do no work' and you thought that by wrapping an entire city in a piece of wire you can safely ignore my commandment". I know it's pointless to apply logic to religion, but how far could you stretch that? Could you wrap an entire country in wire and claim it still have the same effect? An entire continent? The entire planet? >> who cares if it works for you or not? I understand you're being flippant, but come on. I'm just asking if religious people think that such a simple "trick" is really going to be accepted by God as compliant with holy commandments. I can see the answer is clearly yes.
- sevrinsky 6y ago
  Try to think of the Torah -- God's literal word, to Orthodox Jews -- as the Constitution, and rabbinical scholars throughout the generations as the Supreme Court. The Torah prohibits work on Shabbat, but only points out a few instances in the broadest terms. One of those is to not carry items "between domains", directly referenced in Exodus and Jerimiah, but again only a single passage in each instance. This was expanded upon in Talmudic works, which include an explanation of what exactly constitutes a public domain. The eruv is not a loophole to "fool God". The eruv is a means to adjust the technical (or legal) definition of a public domain. When one ensures that a community has a functioning eruv, that itself is part of Shabbat observance.
- smsm42 6y ago
  > Works as in - they believe that they go for their eternal judgement and God says "I clearly said 'do no work' and you thought that by wrapping an entire city in a piece of wire you can safely ignore my commandment". No, that's not what they believe - they're not ignoring the commandment. They are fulfilling it in accordance with the rules given to them by God and passed down by tradition. > Could you wrap an entire country in wire and claim it still have the same effect I don't know, maybe - if an authority in the Jewish law declares it ok, then those who follow that authority would consider it OK. That's exactly how most Western law systems work too. If you want to know if something is lawful, you ask a lawyer. If lawyers disagree, they go to SCOTUS. If SCOTUS decides certain way, then the law is this way. Well, maybe a bit different since Jews have no SCOTUS (then called Sanhedrin) anymore, so if rabbis disagree, they just disagree and their followers do different things. > I understand you're being flippant No, really I am not. You try to apply your criteria to the environment and the culture of which you don't know the laws, the customs, the motivations and the history, and you complain it doesn't work for you and you don't understand it. It's like coming to somebody's house, trying on their shoes and complaining they don't fit. Well duh, it's not your shoes, why would you expect them to fit?! For people that accept this culture, it works, if you're not part of it - it doesn't, but that's fine. It's not some criticism of you, it's just not meant to work in way you think it is meant. > I'm just asking if religious people think that such a simple "trick" is really going to be accepted by God Religious people don't think it's a "trick". You think it's a "trick" but it's your definition, so asking what they think about it is pointless - they don't think in the terms you do.

by smsm42 6y ago

gambiting 6y ago

>>What you mean by "works"? Works as in - they believe that they go for their eternal judgement and God says "I clearly said 'do no work' and you thought that by wrapping an entire city in a piece of wire you can safely ignore my commandment". I know it's pointless to apply logic to religion, but how far could you stretch that? Could you wrap an entire country in wire and claim it still have the same effect? An entire continent? The entire planet? >> who cares if it works for you or not? I understand you're being flippant, but come on. I'm just asking if religious people think that such a simple "trick" is really going to be accepted by God as compliant with holy commandments. I can see the answer is clearly yes.

sevrinsky 6y ago
Try to think of the Torah -- God's literal word, to Orthodox Jews -- as the Constitution, and rabbinical scholars throughout the generations as the Supreme Court. The Torah prohibits work on Shabbat, but only points out a few instances in the broadest terms. One of those is to not carry items "between domains", directly referenced in Exodus and Jerimiah, but again only a single passage in each instance. This was expanded upon in Talmudic works, which include an explanation of what exactly constitutes a public domain. The eruv is not a loophole to "fool God". The eruv is a means to adjust the technical (or legal) definition of a public domain. When one ensures that a community has a functioning eruv, that itself is part of Shabbat observance.
smsm42 6y ago
> Works as in - they believe that they go for their eternal judgement and God says "I clearly said 'do no work' and you thought that by wrapping an entire city in a piece of wire you can safely ignore my commandment". No, that's not what they believe - they're not ignoring the commandment. They are fulfilling it in accordance with the rules given to them by God and passed down by tradition. > Could you wrap an entire country in wire and claim it still have the same effect I don't know, maybe - if an authority in the Jewish law declares it ok, then those who follow that authority would consider it OK. That's exactly how most Western law systems work too. If you want to know if something is lawful, you ask a lawyer. If lawyers disagree, they go to SCOTUS. If SCOTUS decides certain way, then the law is this way. Well, maybe a bit different since Jews have no SCOTUS (then called Sanhedrin) anymore, so if rabbis disagree, they just disagree and their followers do different things. > I understand you're being flippant No, really I am not. You try to apply your criteria to the environment and the culture of which you don't know the laws, the customs, the motivations and the history, and you complain it doesn't work for you and you don't understand it. It's like coming to somebody's house, trying on their shoes and complaining they don't fit. Well duh, it's not your shoes, why would you expect them to fit?! For people that accept this culture, it works, if you're not part of it - it doesn't, but that's fine. It's not some criticism of you, it's just not meant to work in way you think it is meant. > I'm just asking if religious people think that such a simple "trick" is really going to be accepted by God Religious people don't think it's a "trick". You think it's a "trick" but it's your definition, so asking what they think about it is pointless - they don't think in the terms you do.