7 ms·

Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()

by mimsee 5y ago

airstrike 5y ago
As disingenuous as this may be, I feel it's probably not one of the most harmful examples
- pishpash 5y ago
  Should be punished as false advertisement.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Anything attempting to falesly manipulate someone with FOMO should be punishable. If not with jail time, then heavy fines. If not that, they should be forced to do the GoT walk of shame.
- ratww 5y ago
  When it's using Math.random(), it kinda is.
chrisin2d 5y ago
I expect an outcome similar to what happened between the European Commission and Booking.com. Booking.com pioneered a lot of e-commerce dark patterns like “X units left” and “Y people viewed this today”. The EC pushed Booking.com to change its online sales tactics to be more transparent.
- ykat7 5y ago
  Link to the European Commission's press release (2019) for anyone interested: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_6812 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_...
jb1991 5y ago
Booking.com lost a court case over this from what I’ve heard. “Only two rooms left!” nonsense.
dylan604 5y ago
Etsy does a "Only 4 items left, but 7 people have it in their cart" or something similarly worded
- orpheansodality 5y ago
  That one is based on real data (I worked there for a bit), but I generally agree this pattern is exploitative
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    Is it more or less exploitative than eBay watchers? Why so?
- zemo 5y ago
  Etsy users put things in their cart to bookmark them. I haven't been there for six years now, but one of the problems I worked on at Etsy was getting people to stop using their cart as a bookmarking tool. While I was there I worked on the functionality to fave an item as well as the functionality to add items to a List of favorites. There was another tool called Treasuries for this purpose that we phased out, so there were at least three systems that Etsy built to try to help people keep track of items they like without putting them in their cart. I know when we introduced Lists, several colleagues and I worked on that functionality for a few months before it ever saw the light of day. Even so, users continued to put things in their cart "so they wouldn't forget them". It was a very frustrating result; this was the exact behavior we were hoping that Lists would eliminate. It wouldn't surprise me if it's true that the item really is in that many carts. I would also agree that it's not useful or accurate information for you, another shopper, since an Etsy user "having it in their cart" is in many cases not a very strong signal that they will purchase the item in question. Inflating the number intentionally would definitely be a dark pattern. If that number is intentionally inflated or is known to be inaccurate or fictional, dark pattern for sure. Whether the current functionality qualifies as a dark pattern or not is a lot harder to judge. Is it poor design? Yes. For sure. Is it harmful to the user? Again, I think yes. Is it a dark pattern if you design something poorly unintentionally? Does that term measure intent or impact? In a legal context I would expect the measure to be intent, so in that context this is probably not a dark pattern, but HN is not a court of law, so in this context... probably yes?
crmd 5y ago
It’s fun to imagine the implications of dramatically raising the standard for commercial speech, such that statements which intend to mislead are prohibited.
- sandermvanvliet 5y ago
  I worked at a large online retailer in NL that got told they needed to change their delivery promise because that’s not a promise you can actually keep. So it does happen, but probably not often enough.
  - pindab0ter 5y ago
    Which online retailer was that? Happen to have a news item to link to?
    - sandermvanvliet 5y ago
      Don’t have a news article because I learned about it through internal channels. It’s the one that does it for the smiles
    - AbortedLaunch 5y ago
      Coolblue. They violated the advertising code. The verdict in Dutch is available at https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/uitspraak/huishouden-en-inrichting-2019-00055/242672/ https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/uitspraak/huishouden-e...
  - crmd 5y ago
    I’m glad to hear that! It also lines up with my anecdotal experience overseeing a marketing department that Benelux, German, and Japanese teams were on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to American, Israeli, and Chinese teams with respect to “marketing bullshit” practices.
- jozzy-james 5y ago
  apply it to physical stores, see how far it goes
slver 5y ago
Rookie mistake. You gotta Math.random() that shit server-side.
DavidSJ 5y ago
I was asked to implement something like this at a web startup years ago (since folded): I was supposed to juice the number of active users in the last month by a large random number in the range of 50,000-100,000 or so. I refused saying I didn't want to lie to our customers. My boss said, "it's not for them, it's for the board". Which, needless to say, was even more reason to refuse. They assigned it to another engineer. The new "feature" was deployed. He forgot to round the random number. So let's just say the home page reported the number of active users with very fine precision. Unfortunately it was quickly fixed.

Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()

by mimsee 5y ago

Ecommerce sites showing a "27 people are watching this right now" alongside the product but from source code it turns out to be a Math.random()

airstrike 5y ago

As disingenuous as this may be, I feel it's probably not one of the most harmful examples

pishpash 5y ago
Should be punished as false advertisement.
dylan604 5y ago
Anything attempting to falesly manipulate someone with FOMO should be punishable. If not with jail time, then heavy fines. If not that, they should be forced to do the GoT walk of shame.
ratww 5y ago
When it's using Math.random(), it kinda is.

chrisin2d 5y ago

I expect an outcome similar to what happened between the European Commission and Booking.com. Booking.com pioneered a lot of e-commerce dark patterns like “X units left” and “Y people viewed this today”. The EC pushed Booking.com to change its online sales tactics to be more transparent.

ykat7 5y ago
Link to the European Commission's press release (2019) for anyone interested: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_6812 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_19_...

jb1991 5y ago

Booking.com lost a court case over this from what I’ve heard. “Only two rooms left!” nonsense.

dylan604 5y ago

Etsy does a "Only 4 items left, but 7 people have it in their cart" or something similarly worded

orpheansodality 5y ago
That one is based on real data (I worked there for a bit), but I generally agree this pattern is exploitative
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  Is it more or less exploitative than eBay watchers? Why so?
zemo 5y ago
Etsy users put things in their cart to bookmark them. I haven't been there for six years now, but one of the problems I worked on at Etsy was getting people to stop using their cart as a bookmarking tool. While I was there I worked on the functionality to fave an item as well as the functionality to add items to a List of favorites. There was another tool called Treasuries for this purpose that we phased out, so there were at least three systems that Etsy built to try to help people keep track of items they like without putting them in their cart. I know when we introduced Lists, several colleagues and I worked on that functionality for a few months before it ever saw the light of day. Even so, users continued to put things in their cart "so they wouldn't forget them". It was a very frustrating result; this was the exact behavior we were hoping that Lists would eliminate. It wouldn't surprise me if it's true that the item really is in that many carts. I would also agree that it's not useful or accurate information for you, another shopper, since an Etsy user "having it in their cart" is in many cases not a very strong signal that they will purchase the item in question. Inflating the number intentionally would definitely be a dark pattern. If that number is intentionally inflated or is known to be inaccurate or fictional, dark pattern for sure. Whether the current functionality qualifies as a dark pattern or not is a lot harder to judge. Is it poor design? Yes. For sure. Is it harmful to the user? Again, I think yes. Is it a dark pattern if you design something poorly unintentionally? Does that term measure intent or impact? In a legal context I would expect the measure to be intent, so in that context this is probably not a dark pattern, but HN is not a court of law, so in this context... probably yes?

crmd 5y ago

It’s fun to imagine the implications of dramatically raising the standard for commercial speech, such that statements which intend to mislead are prohibited.

sandermvanvliet 5y ago
I worked at a large online retailer in NL that got told they needed to change their delivery promise because that’s not a promise you can actually keep. So it does happen, but probably not often enough.
- pindab0ter 5y ago
  Which online retailer was that? Happen to have a news item to link to?
  - sandermvanvliet 5y ago
    Don’t have a news article because I learned about it through internal channels. It’s the one that does it for the smiles
  - AbortedLaunch 5y ago
    Coolblue. They violated the advertising code. The verdict in Dutch is available at https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/uitspraak/huishouden-en-inrichting-2019-00055/242672/ https://www.reclamecode.nl/uitspraken/uitspraak/huishouden-e...
- crmd 5y ago
  I’m glad to hear that! It also lines up with my anecdotal experience overseeing a marketing department that Benelux, German, and Japanese teams were on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to American, Israeli, and Chinese teams with respect to “marketing bullshit” practices.
jozzy-james 5y ago
apply it to physical stores, see how far it goes

slver 5y ago

Rookie mistake. You gotta Math.random() that shit server-side.

DavidSJ 5y ago

I was asked to implement something like this at a web startup years ago (since folded): I was supposed to juice the number of active users in the last month by a large random number in the range of 50,000-100,000 or so. I refused saying I didn't want to lie to our customers. My boss said, "it's not for them, it's for the board". Which, needless to say, was even more reason to refuse. They assigned it to another engineer. The new "feature" was deployed. He forgot to round the random number. So let's just say the home page reported the number of active users with very fine precision. Unfortunately it was quickly fixed.