11 ms·

My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

76 points by Balgair 6y ago

thedevelopnik 6y ago
How did Dick not get fired long before if everyone thought he was terrible? Oh right, that company did not learn the lesson of the first one, coding is not as important as being a decent person when it comes to building a team.
- etrabroline 6y ago
  I will never understand this logic. It doesn't matter how friendly someone is if they can't code, but even if someone is difficult to work with (as many smart computer programmers are) they can still be hugely important to a team's success. Obviously there are limits to both of these, but technical ability is the requirement and "being fun to work with" is the nice-to-have. I think highly socialized people tend to complain about non-social people much more than the reverse.
  - domano 6y ago
    Sure, not having any hard skills at all disqualifies, but at some point you are good enough to do work and the social ability becomes the bottleneck. It is not about being fun to work with (this is a nice bonus, sure), but having the ability to communicate with and enable, mentor, help others or accept help and critique if necessary.
    - etrabroline 6y ago
      That's a good way of putting it. A lot of really smart people are held back by their inability to be pleasant enough to work with that people want to work with them, which is needed for teamwork, which is needed for large-scale projects to succeed.
  - rcxdude 6y ago
    A highly technically skilled but anti-social team member can easily have negative productivity as they bring down (or drive out) everyone else in the team. This doesn't even require them to be an asshole: just being bad at communicating can do it (I have had such a coworker: nice, very technically skilled, completely useless as part of a team).
    - etrabroline 6y ago
      >drive out) everyone else in the team [by] just being bad at communicating Wow. What exactly did he do that literally made everyone else quit? Surely there was a lot more than just "being bad at communicating".
  - gumby 6y ago
    I have had some colleagues who were so-so developers yet were the social and institutional glue that made the team productive. I didn't play team sports as a kid so it took me a decade or so as a working adult to appreciate the difference between a high-function team and a collection of super smart individuals.
thiagocsf 6y ago
My horror in reading this is that I, a male engineer, have probably been the Dick at some point in my career.
- domano 6y ago
  Wouldnt you know?
  - hackflip 6y ago
    Do you think Dick knows he's a dick?
    - domano 6y ago
      Dick wouldn't wonder if he is a dick
conradludgate 6y ago
I'm always disappointed when I read stories like this. It saddens me that people are like this. My team of 15 has a whopping 2 female engineers and they're amazing. Thankfully I've never witnessed a single instance of sexism here. There's a fair amount of ignorance and some awkward terminology though. (they often use "Hey guys" or "Hey lads"). I do remember in college we did have a female student. Of course the reaction was "Wow! A girl in the class!". She didn't last long before transferring courses... I hope our future female engineers persist and we can get a better split between men and women. I hate being in this men's world Please! Respect your fellow engineers, no matter what they look like or where they come from.
- sudosteph 6y ago
  I was often the only girl in my comp sci classes, though not always. I always thought it was interesting to see how my fellow female peers handled the extra attention. Some of them leaned into it and were always surrounded by mediocre male peers eager to "help" them. They would pretty much always defer to their posse of helpers and get praise for being a team player. My strategy was pretty much the polar opposite though. I found that if I could one-up my male peers early in the course, most of the annoying ones would be too intimidated to bother me. It worked out pretty well too. The ones who weren't intimidated tended to be better at the coursework anyhow. So when I needed to partner up, I would pick one of them - and I wouldn't have to worry about them not respecting me or anything. If it was a random pairing with one of the ones who was uncomfortable around me, that actually worked fine too. They usually let me take the leadership role, and I didn't mind that either. I didn't get points for being agreeable, but nobody doubted my competency - and that was all I really wanted. I can definitely see how women who aren't comfortable doing either of the things described above would transfer away.
deleted 6y ago
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rasputnik6502 6y ago
Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're perceived as dangerous). And misunderstandings happen, with victims on both sides, but it's valuable to know some people have hidden motives. I have a different issue, I think it has something to do with male/female relations at workplace. I'm the lead dev in a mixed team. And one of devs, who happens to be a girl, has some special attitude. Whenever I report a problem with the code, or a bug, she jumps in and exclaims it's not her code or she didn't do anything related to the problem, basically not her fault [without any suggestions that it might be her fault]. Sometimes tries to blame someone else. If anything points to her responsibility, she downplays it (oh you know I don't even remember). All while I try to avoid blaming or pointing code ownership. But the most difficult part was when I pointed out some parts were missing in her work and function wasn't completed - then I was accused of being mean and attacking her without any reason. Never had such situation, I am rather a considerate, polite person, try to remain professional and never touch personal side - but this just perplexed me. With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default. I perceived this as a threat - never ever criticize my work or you will be accused. Unfortunately she's not doing that great job sometimes and so cooperation gets quite difficult - and I'm afraid it's not going to be good in future.
- jcims 6y ago
  It's human nature to use whatever leverage you have, this kind of thing is going to happen. In my experience one of the best balancing forces for this overshoot is to ensure that you're putting as much effort into developing diverse leads as you are hiring diverse ICs.
- hodgesrm 6y ago
  It's important to keep things fact based and be very specific about the behavior you want corrected. I would get things in writing as well so that you have email to back you up in case things go south. The situation you are describing is, unfortunately, not a male/female issue. It is a pattern for a certain type of low performer. p.s., You might think about why you use the word "girl" as opposed to "woman" BTW. That's a touchy point for a lot of women, as it diminishes their seniority. It may or may not be relevant to the conversations you describe. This is not intended as criticism; I know nothing of the situation beyond what you wrote.
bsaul 6y ago
if i want to play devil's advocate here, i'd say you can't both - remark that throughout your carrer you've been pretty much the only female in your team, - note that you've been naturally assigned the role of greeting newcomers, then - be upset that a new candidate won't assume you're an assistant instead of a developer he'll work with. He's just noticed pretty much the same things as you, and concluded the most likely job for that person that greeted him was an assistant.
- hodgesrm 6y ago
  That's not quite what the author was getting at. She was making an important point that I support wholeheartedly. Any candidate who is a jerk to the person who shows them to the meeting room and provides coffee pretty much guarantees they will not be joining my company. It's a good sieve for people who won't work out on a team because they lack basic consideration for others.
  - etrabroline 6y ago
    >That's not quite what the author was getting at Of course not, bsaul was making his own point with the facts presented by the author. The characterization of the candidate's choice of words as "being a jerk" is not a fact. Clearly he was making a joke.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  No need to play devil's advocate. I agree with you. It's the job of the greeter, regardless of title, to provide anything needed because the candidate is not allowed to wander the halls. In addition, she should have introduced herself as the manager. This woman set up a candidate, and then gleefully laughed when they spilled coffee on themself? Just imagine reversing the roles and hounding a female candidate out of the office for requesting coffee.
slickdork 6y ago
Thoughts from tale 1: - I would have guessed that the person who greeted me, showed me where to sit, and asked if I needed anything before leaving was a receptionist regardless of gender. That seems like an unfair strike/test. - I'm always surprised by how stupid people are. Being nice to the receptionist isn't just good standard human behavior, but it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the hiring process. Unspecific thoughts: - I'm always bummed when writing about sexism is laden with sexism ("Tech bros" being thrown around like an insult a lot here -- maybe don't use a gender pronoun in your insults?). - I'm always bummed that sexism exists at all, because I'm so naively un-maliciousness that I forget some people are the exact opposite. When I read stories like this, I have a hard time believing them because they're so out side the realm of how I would act/behave, but I definitely believe it all.
- _Microft 6y ago
  Just for your information: indenting a comment like this renders the indented text as block of code. It might look formatted or more readable on desktop but on mobile it looks broken and requires horizontal scrolling. Maybe there is a different way of structuring the comment that you might like as well?
  - slickdork 6y ago
    Thanks! Updated.
- sunshineforever 6y ago
  Its quite a world we live in isn't it? The things that people accuse me of sometimes baffle me. And then I have to remember, oh yeah that's the kind of world that they live in, filled with malicious intent , backstabbing, jealousy etc.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  > it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the hiring process. That's a stretch.
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ja27 6y ago
When we had someone in for an interview, I'd often circle back and ask the office admin (that also covered reception) what she thought of them. It was pretty informative and eliminated a few candidates. I've seen someone give the advice of responding to crude sexist "jokes" by asking them to explain it then explain the explanation. Just keep insisting that you don't get it and don't understand why it's funny and see how deep you can get them to dig before they get it.
alisonkisk 6y ago
This article reads like a first draft of Disney's Purl, with a bit of /r/thathappened embellishment (coke pouring back into the can?). Someone who calls their (her word) kind coworker "babe" and "tech bro" also raises an eyebrow.
Graffur 6y ago
I'll admit I didn't finish the article. I got as far as the author critising her colleagues clothes. If this was the other way round she would be pissed but because she is making fun of men itself okay to her. She also seems to think a receptionist or assistant is beneath her for some reason. I'm tired of pandering to the idea of all men bad all women good.
- yeldiR 6y ago
  Huh? These are stories about specific men doing specifically shitty things. The generalization is yours.
- techbio 6y ago
  I figured as much, and just skimmed to catch the title beverages, but it didn't sit well with somebody. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27024130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27024130 Also, sibling poster with "Huh?": how can you be that clueless?
- curryst 6y ago
  The reason she's pissed isn't because they think she's a secretary, it's because they apparently didn't consider it a possibility that she was anything else. The fact that she's a woman is likely the cause of that. I can't imagine that they considered that she might be the hiring manager or potential team member and then decided to go straight to asking them to do stuff instead of asking what their role is first. They also then go on to presume that she might not even be able to explain what the company does (which seems like it would be insulting to someone who is an actual receptionist). I'm shocked people assume anyone's roles. It's not like it's uncommon to send down the hiring manager, first interviewer, potential teammate, etc to pick up interviewees.
floatingatoll 6y ago
Men, if you want to know how to help prevent this kind of nonsense, pro tip: > he went on to say that Dick is a bully, and he’s personally wanted to punch Dick for years This executive leader tolerated Dick for years, and then instead of getting Dick fired for gross and inappropriate touching, he celebrated a harassed woman on having to physically defend her person inside the workplace. So, men, your mission, should you choose to accept it: Stop tolerating bad men in your professional and personal lives. Call them out. Report them to HR. Tell them their behavior makes you uncomfortable. Stop hanging out with them. Accept the penalty to networking and move on to better people. Otherwise you’re just the enabler that makes it possible for bad men to hurt others without consequences. (Obviously, don’t tolerate bad women either, but from a statistical standpoint, focusing on the men-enabling-men problem will have the widest societal impact for women.)
- PicassoCTs 6y ago
  But those aholes are sooo useful. A company has a interior and a endoplasmatic reticulum, and while the interior can be a nice place, the parts closer to the skin get continuously more ahole. Which makes it a intersting question if Dick was a ahole to everyone equally. Some people in there have to be the mean guys, stopping cash from hemorrhaging outwards, be the grave digger for eternal projects, who everybody wants to "save" since the founding of the company. Being a Machiavellian brute when it comes to negotiation, with other Machiavellian brutes. A company is like a spaceship in a hostile environment, and you need ass-tronauts to climb out and weld the holes shut, that the universe punches into it. And if you life dangerously, you will want to "measure" up with all other guys, who of course claim "to life dangerously too", but might run on first sign of trouble. Dick might actually regard her much higher for hitting him, than a lot of his colleagues. Very neanderthal, but that is how it is. And then there are sexist aholes, who should be beaten to death with a baseball bat. Like that Thuna guy. Makes me ashamed to be part of the species. Seriously, should be fired, with a public declaration of why, so he never will ever be hired by anyone again.
  - rasputnik6502 6y ago
    Too little we know about Dick. Apart from the fact that he touched the hair of his coworker and made some personal remarks. Then when the woman asked him to stop he couldn't, he couldn't just apologize and stop because this would mean he did something wrong. So he did it again pretending it's just a fun joke. I dont know, i'm not a woman. I dont even know how to handle some strange situations at work. But what Dick did reminds me of kids behavior -they do something annoying, for example kick the chair, and when asked to stop they will pretend they dont understand, kick one or two more times and laugh - just to check if the situation can be transformed into harmless/no consequence and they can get out without having to admit wrongdoing. Sometimes it's a sociopath targeting a victim while pretending it's a harmless friendly joke, but quite often its just a big child..
scpedicini 6y ago
I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, because if they are genuinely true as written down, then that is some seriously toxic misogynistic shit, but some of the quotes from the male interviewees sound like they could be lifted straight out of an episode of mad men and an office in the 1960s. “Hey, hon, before you go… can you get me some more coffee? And put some sugar in it." I mean... really?? It's hard for me to even imagine those words coming out of a white-collar software engineer applicant. Did they hoot and wolf whistle as she walked by too? I can only speak anecdotally but as a software engineer for the last two decades I've never seen anything even remotely like this in any of the software companies that I worked at, while bearing in mind that of course as a male I would likely be less likely to notice. There is likely some truth in this article but it feels like it might be mixed up with some exaggerations which to me hurt the message as a whole.
- bjourne 6y ago
  One time me and a female colleague needed to have one of the salespeople sign a form and he blurted out to her: "Maybe you want my digits too, wink, wink!" So yeah, I do believe her.
- M2Ys4U 6y ago
  "I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, but <attempts to invalidate this woman's experiences>"
  - scpedicini 6y ago
    Sigh... really? This is reddit-level "Yakov Smirnoff" of rebuttals. But I'm going to break it down for you anyway and operate on the shared assumption of good faith since you may have genuinely misconstrued my intent. I couched my words - stating that I only found one particular piece of content unbelievable - once again now, FOR ME PERSONALLY. Irrespective of whether the "1950s women in the workforce" quote actually transpired, her overall experiences still cast a powerful light on the continuing toxic nature of the work environment for women.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
spicymaki 6y ago
This will sound pretty weird, but this person reminds me of a interesting character in the anime "Great Teacher Onizuka." The chairwoman (Ryoko Sakurai) of the prestigious academy (where the show takes place) would work in disguise at the school canteen in order get a real feeling for how people really were. If they new her true power they might treat her with insincere deference. I thought the idea was ingenious, and I am glad to see that people are actually employing that strategy in real life. https://great-teacher-onizuka-gto.fandom.com/wiki/Ryoko_Sakurai https://great-teacher-onizuka-gto.fandom.com/wiki/Ryoko_Saku...
DoreenMichele 6y ago
I really like the part where they decided to just have her greet everyone and see how that went. That's a brilliant hack.
- scpedicini 6y ago
  I don't know... I feel like putting her into that position exposed her to a lot of negative energy that she may not have necessarily received in the first place. If I personally was the brunt of all that crap, it would definitely get to me personally - so while I appreciate the company's approach ideologically I think emotionally it might've done more psychological damage to her in the long run.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I have a great deal of trouble imagining that weeding out blatant sexist pigs in five minutes flat is somehow worse than working alongside one for months while he tries to pretend he's not but still cannot manage to actually have one iota of respect for her.
    - scpedicini 6y ago
      Yeah I see your point, it's unfortunate there is not an automated pre-interview system (like GPT meets Eliza) that could flag these people such that actual women aren't exposed to their toxicity.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    As a woman who has endured a standard helping of sexist toxicity in the workplace, I'd much rather front-load it like this rather than be surprised that my department hired yet another jerk.
techbio 6y ago
All 3 beverages caffeinated, of course... Wonder how that affects interpersonal transactions. Anybody on edge and slightly ahead of themselves? Everybody? Just want to recommend L-Theanine to smooth the jagged edges. Men and women both ought to notch it back as far as I can tell. EDIT: I thought it might be pertinent, but clearly the battle of the sexes is more interesting to all of you. Grow up.
- techbio 6y ago
  OK, ok, I read the article, it was actually fun and witty and couched in a happy-hour tone with "adult beverages" mentioned both in the introduction and conclusion. She seems smart and righteous and tougher than she probably looks. I would rather work with her than be one of those guys trying to explain why he isn't pressing charges for assault and/or battery. If only I could use those tactics when facing up with challenging coworkers, I would have a different set of battle stories.
- techbio 6y ago
  Be brave. What's your actual problem with the above? Have I tacitly condoned a false equivalency? You're appalled at rude words, but cheering for physical violence? Is it the unscientific supplement recommendation? Gender war stories have a fixed plot? There might be a better way.

76 points by Balgair 6y ago

How did Dick not get fired long before if everyone thought he was terrible? Oh right, that company did not learn the lesson of the first one, coding is not as important as being a decent person when it comes to building a team.

etrabroline 6y ago
I will never understand this logic. It doesn't matter how friendly someone is if they can't code, but even if someone is difficult to work with (as many smart computer programmers are) they can still be hugely important to a team's success. Obviously there are limits to both of these, but technical ability is the requirement and "being fun to work with" is the nice-to-have. I think highly socialized people tend to complain about non-social people much more than the reverse.
- domano 6y ago
  Sure, not having any hard skills at all disqualifies, but at some point you are good enough to do work and the social ability becomes the bottleneck. It is not about being fun to work with (this is a nice bonus, sure), but having the ability to communicate with and enable, mentor, help others or accept help and critique if necessary.
  - etrabroline 6y ago
    That's a good way of putting it. A lot of really smart people are held back by their inability to be pleasant enough to work with that people want to work with them, which is needed for teamwork, which is needed for large-scale projects to succeed.
- rcxdude 6y ago
  A highly technically skilled but anti-social team member can easily have negative productivity as they bring down (or drive out) everyone else in the team. This doesn't even require them to be an asshole: just being bad at communicating can do it (I have had such a coworker: nice, very technically skilled, completely useless as part of a team).
  - etrabroline 6y ago
    >drive out) everyone else in the team [by] just being bad at communicating Wow. What exactly did he do that literally made everyone else quit? Surely there was a lot more than just "being bad at communicating".
- gumby 6y ago
  I have had some colleagues who were so-so developers yet were the social and institutional glue that made the team productive. I didn't play team sports as a kid so it took me a decade or so as a working adult to appreciate the difference between a high-function team and a collection of super smart individuals.

thiagocsf 6y ago

My horror in reading this is that I, a male engineer, have probably been the Dick at some point in my career.

domano 6y ago
Wouldnt you know?
- hackflip 6y ago
  Do you think Dick knows he's a dick?
  - domano 6y ago
    Dick wouldn't wonder if he is a dick

conradludgate 6y ago

I'm always disappointed when I read stories like this. It saddens me that people are like this. My team of 15 has a whopping 2 female engineers and they're amazing. Thankfully I've never witnessed a single instance of sexism here. There's a fair amount of ignorance and some awkward terminology though. (they often use "Hey guys" or "Hey lads"). I do remember in college we did have a female student. Of course the reaction was "Wow! A girl in the class!". She didn't last long before transferring courses... I hope our future female engineers persist and we can get a better split between men and women. I hate being in this men's world Please! Respect your fellow engineers, no matter what they look like or where they come from.

sudosteph 6y ago
I was often the only girl in my comp sci classes, though not always. I always thought it was interesting to see how my fellow female peers handled the extra attention. Some of them leaned into it and were always surrounded by mediocre male peers eager to "help" them. They would pretty much always defer to their posse of helpers and get praise for being a team player. My strategy was pretty much the polar opposite though. I found that if I could one-up my male peers early in the course, most of the annoying ones would be too intimidated to bother me. It worked out pretty well too. The ones who weren't intimidated tended to be better at the coursework anyhow. So when I needed to partner up, I would pick one of them - and I wouldn't have to worry about them not respecting me or anything. If it was a random pairing with one of the ones who was uncomfortable around me, that actually worked fine too. They usually let me take the leadership role, and I didn't mind that either. I didn't get points for being agreeable, but nobody doubted my competency - and that was all I really wanted. I can definitely see how women who aren't comfortable doing either of the things described above would transfer away.

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rasputnik6502 6y ago

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're perceived as dangerous). And misunderstandings happen, with victims on both sides, but it's valuable to know some people have hidden motives. I have a different issue, I think it has something to do with male/female relations at workplace. I'm the lead dev in a mixed team. And one of devs, who happens to be a girl, has some special attitude. Whenever I report a problem with the code, or a bug, she jumps in and exclaims it's not her code or she didn't do anything related to the problem, basically not her fault [without any suggestions that it might be her fault]. Sometimes tries to blame someone else. If anything points to her responsibility, she downplays it (oh you know I don't even remember). All while I try to avoid blaming or pointing code ownership. But the most difficult part was when I pointed out some parts were missing in her work and function wasn't completed - then I was accused of being mean and attacking her without any reason. Never had such situation, I am rather a considerate, polite person, try to remain professional and never touch personal side - but this just perplexed me. With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default. I perceived this as a threat - never ever criticize my work or you will be accused. Unfortunately she's not doing that great job sometimes and so cooperation gets quite difficult - and I'm afraid it's not going to be good in future.

jcims 6y ago
It's human nature to use whatever leverage you have, this kind of thing is going to happen. In my experience one of the best balancing forces for this overshoot is to ensure that you're putting as much effort into developing diverse leads as you are hiring diverse ICs.
hodgesrm 6y ago
It's important to keep things fact based and be very specific about the behavior you want corrected. I would get things in writing as well so that you have email to back you up in case things go south. The situation you are describing is, unfortunately, not a male/female issue. It is a pattern for a certain type of low performer. p.s., You might think about why you use the word "girl" as opposed to "woman" BTW. That's a touchy point for a lot of women, as it diminishes their seniority. It may or may not be relevant to the conversations you describe. This is not intended as criticism; I know nothing of the situation beyond what you wrote.

bsaul 6y ago

if i want to play devil's advocate here, i'd say you can't both - remark that throughout your carrer you've been pretty much the only female in your team, - note that you've been naturally assigned the role of greeting newcomers, then - be upset that a new candidate won't assume you're an assistant instead of a developer he'll work with. He's just noticed pretty much the same things as you, and concluded the most likely job for that person that greeted him was an assistant.

hodgesrm 6y ago
That's not quite what the author was getting at. She was making an important point that I support wholeheartedly. Any candidate who is a jerk to the person who shows them to the meeting room and provides coffee pretty much guarantees they will not be joining my company. It's a good sieve for people who won't work out on a team because they lack basic consideration for others.
- etrabroline 6y ago
  >That's not quite what the author was getting at Of course not, bsaul was making his own point with the facts presented by the author. The characterization of the candidate's choice of words as "being a jerk" is not a fact. Clearly he was making a joke.
redis_mlc 6y ago
No need to play devil's advocate. I agree with you. It's the job of the greeter, regardless of title, to provide anything needed because the candidate is not allowed to wander the halls. In addition, she should have introduced herself as the manager. This woman set up a candidate, and then gleefully laughed when they spilled coffee on themself? Just imagine reversing the roles and hounding a female candidate out of the office for requesting coffee.

slickdork 6y ago

Thoughts from tale 1: - I would have guessed that the person who greeted me, showed me where to sit, and asked if I needed anything before leaving was a receptionist regardless of gender. That seems like an unfair strike/test. - I'm always surprised by how stupid people are. Being nice to the receptionist isn't just good standard human behavior, but it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the hiring process. Unspecific thoughts: - I'm always bummed when writing about sexism is laden with sexism ("Tech bros" being thrown around like an insult a lot here -- maybe don't use a gender pronoun in your insults?). - I'm always bummed that sexism exists at all, because I'm so naively un-maliciousness that I forget some people are the exact opposite. When I read stories like this, I have a hard time believing them because they're so out side the realm of how I would act/behave, but I definitely believe it all.

_Microft 6y ago
Just for your information: indenting a comment like this renders the indented text as block of code. It might look formatted or more readable on desktop but on mobile it looks broken and requires horizontal scrolling. Maybe there is a different way of structuring the comment that you might like as well?
- slickdork 6y ago
  Thanks! Updated.
sunshineforever 6y ago
Its quite a world we live in isn't it? The things that people accuse me of sometimes baffle me. And then I have to remember, oh yeah that's the kind of world that they live in, filled with malicious intent , backstabbing, jealousy etc.
alisonkisk 6y ago
> it's also obvious that a receptionist will have input on the hiring process. That's a stretch.

deleted 6y ago

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ja27 6y ago

When we had someone in for an interview, I'd often circle back and ask the office admin (that also covered reception) what she thought of them. It was pretty informative and eliminated a few candidates. I've seen someone give the advice of responding to crude sexist "jokes" by asking them to explain it then explain the explanation. Just keep insisting that you don't get it and don't understand why it's funny and see how deep you can get them to dig before they get it.

alisonkisk 6y ago

This article reads like a first draft of Disney's Purl, with a bit of /r/thathappened embellishment (coke pouring back into the can?). Someone who calls their (her word) kind coworker "babe" and "tech bro" also raises an eyebrow.

Graffur 6y ago

I'll admit I didn't finish the article. I got as far as the author critising her colleagues clothes. If this was the other way round she would be pissed but because she is making fun of men itself okay to her. She also seems to think a receptionist or assistant is beneath her for some reason. I'm tired of pandering to the idea of all men bad all women good.

yeldiR 6y ago
Huh? These are stories about specific men doing specifically shitty things. The generalization is yours.
techbio 6y ago
I figured as much, and just skimmed to catch the title beverages, but it didn't sit well with somebody. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27024130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27024130 Also, sibling poster with "Huh?": how can you be that clueless?
curryst 6y ago
The reason she's pissed isn't because they think she's a secretary, it's because they apparently didn't consider it a possibility that she was anything else. The fact that she's a woman is likely the cause of that. I can't imagine that they considered that she might be the hiring manager or potential team member and then decided to go straight to asking them to do stuff instead of asking what their role is first. They also then go on to presume that she might not even be able to explain what the company does (which seems like it would be insulting to someone who is an actual receptionist). I'm shocked people assume anyone's roles. It's not like it's uncommon to send down the hiring manager, first interviewer, potential teammate, etc to pick up interviewees.

floatingatoll 6y ago

Men, if you want to know how to help prevent this kind of nonsense, pro tip: > he went on to say that Dick is a bully, and he’s personally wanted to punch Dick for years This executive leader tolerated Dick for years, and then instead of getting Dick fired for gross and inappropriate touching, he celebrated a harassed woman on having to physically defend her person inside the workplace. So, men, your mission, should you choose to accept it: Stop tolerating bad men in your professional and personal lives. Call them out. Report them to HR. Tell them their behavior makes you uncomfortable. Stop hanging out with them. Accept the penalty to networking and move on to better people. Otherwise you’re just the enabler that makes it possible for bad men to hurt others without consequences. (Obviously, don’t tolerate bad women either, but from a statistical standpoint, focusing on the men-enabling-men problem will have the widest societal impact for women.)

PicassoCTs 6y ago
But those aholes are sooo useful. A company has a interior and a endoplasmatic reticulum, and while the interior can be a nice place, the parts closer to the skin get continuously more ahole. Which makes it a intersting question if Dick was a ahole to everyone equally. Some people in there have to be the mean guys, stopping cash from hemorrhaging outwards, be the grave digger for eternal projects, who everybody wants to "save" since the founding of the company. Being a Machiavellian brute when it comes to negotiation, with other Machiavellian brutes. A company is like a spaceship in a hostile environment, and you need ass-tronauts to climb out and weld the holes shut, that the universe punches into it. And if you life dangerously, you will want to "measure" up with all other guys, who of course claim "to life dangerously too", but might run on first sign of trouble. Dick might actually regard her much higher for hitting him, than a lot of his colleagues. Very neanderthal, but that is how it is. And then there are sexist aholes, who should be beaten to death with a baseball bat. Like that Thuna guy. Makes me ashamed to be part of the species. Seriously, should be fired, with a public declaration of why, so he never will ever be hired by anyone again.
- rasputnik6502 6y ago
  Too little we know about Dick. Apart from the fact that he touched the hair of his coworker and made some personal remarks. Then when the woman asked him to stop he couldn't, he couldn't just apologize and stop because this would mean he did something wrong. So he did it again pretending it's just a fun joke. I dont know, i'm not a woman. I dont even know how to handle some strange situations at work. But what Dick did reminds me of kids behavior -they do something annoying, for example kick the chair, and when asked to stop they will pretend they dont understand, kick one or two more times and laugh - just to check if the situation can be transformed into harmless/no consequence and they can get out without having to admit wrongdoing. Sometimes it's a sociopath targeting a victim while pretending it's a harmless friendly joke, but quite often its just a big child..

scpedicini 6y ago

I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, because if they are genuinely true as written down, then that is some seriously toxic misogynistic shit, but some of the quotes from the male interviewees sound like they could be lifted straight out of an episode of mad men and an office in the 1960s. “Hey, hon, before you go… can you get me some more coffee? And put some sugar in it." I mean... really?? It's hard for me to even imagine those words coming out of a white-collar software engineer applicant. Did they hoot and wolf whistle as she walked by too? I can only speak anecdotally but as a software engineer for the last two decades I've never seen anything even remotely like this in any of the software companies that I worked at, while bearing in mind that of course as a male I would likely be less likely to notice. There is likely some truth in this article but it feels like it might be mixed up with some exaggerations which to me hurt the message as a whole.

bjourne 6y ago
One time me and a female colleague needed to have one of the salespeople sign a form and he blurted out to her: "Maybe you want my digits too, wink, wink!" So yeah, I do believe her.
M2Ys4U 6y ago
"I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, but <attempts to invalidate this woman's experiences>"
- scpedicini 6y ago
  Sigh... really? This is reddit-level "Yakov Smirnoff" of rebuttals. But I'm going to break it down for you anyway and operate on the shared assumption of good faith since you may have genuinely misconstrued my intent. I couched my words - stating that I only found one particular piece of content unbelievable - once again now, FOR ME PERSONALLY. Irrespective of whether the "1950s women in the workforce" quote actually transpired, her overall experiences still cast a powerful light on the continuing toxic nature of the work environment for women.
DoreenMichele 6y ago

spicymaki 6y ago

This will sound pretty weird, but this person reminds me of a interesting character in the anime "Great Teacher Onizuka." The chairwoman (Ryoko Sakurai) of the prestigious academy (where the show takes place) would work in disguise at the school canteen in order get a real feeling for how people really were. If they new her true power they might treat her with insincere deference. I thought the idea was ingenious, and I am glad to see that people are actually employing that strategy in real life. https://great-teacher-onizuka-gto.fandom.com/wiki/Ryoko_Sakurai https://great-teacher-onizuka-gto.fandom.com/wiki/Ryoko_Saku...

DoreenMichele 6y ago

I really like the part where they decided to just have her greet everyone and see how that went. That's a brilliant hack.

scpedicini 6y ago
I don't know... I feel like putting her into that position exposed her to a lot of negative energy that she may not have necessarily received in the first place. If I personally was the brunt of all that crap, it would definitely get to me personally - so while I appreciate the company's approach ideologically I think emotionally it might've done more psychological damage to her in the long run.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I have a great deal of trouble imagining that weeding out blatant sexist pigs in five minutes flat is somehow worse than working alongside one for months while he tries to pretend he's not but still cannot manage to actually have one iota of respect for her.
  - scpedicini 6y ago
    Yeah I see your point, it's unfortunate there is not an automated pre-interview system (like GPT meets Eliza) that could flag these people such that actual women aren't exposed to their toxicity.
- klyrs 6y ago
  As a woman who has endured a standard helping of sexist toxicity in the workplace, I'd much rather front-load it like this rather than be surprised that my department hired yet another jerk.

techbio 6y ago

All 3 beverages caffeinated, of course... Wonder how that affects interpersonal transactions. Anybody on edge and slightly ahead of themselves? Everybody? Just want to recommend L-Theanine to smooth the jagged edges. Men and women both ought to notch it back as far as I can tell. EDIT: I thought it might be pertinent, but clearly the battle of the sexes is more interesting to all of you. Grow up.

techbio 6y ago
OK, ok, I read the article, it was actually fun and witty and couched in a happy-hour tone with "adult beverages" mentioned both in the introduction and conclusion. She seems smart and righteous and tougher than she probably looks. I would rather work with her than be one of those guys trying to explain why he isn't pressing charges for assault and/or battery. If only I could use those tactics when facing up with challenging coworkers, I would have a different set of battle stories.
techbio 6y ago
Be brave. What's your actual problem with the above? Have I tacitly condoned a false equivalency? You're appalled at rude words, but cheering for physical violence? Is it the unscientific supplement recommendation? Gender war stories have a fixed plot? There might be a better way.