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But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein i

But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

gameswithgo 5y ago
This has been the clever guy hot take for a few days now. Yet millions of people are walking around vaccinated without damage, so....
- ronri19 5y ago
  We also have 150+ million people around the world who've had the virus walking around without damage. The point is how should we change our recommendations? Are older people or others with certain medical conditions more susceptible to damage? I don't see how shrugging off this new information is reasonable or scientific.
  - podgaj 5y ago
    Start by telling people to take more zinc.
    - podgaj 5y ago
      People downvoting nutrition…I don’t get it…or maybe I do. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457721001431 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... Vitamin D levels had a significant difference between the case and control groups (p = 0.008). Serum calcium and serum zinc levels also had statistically significant differences between the two groups (p < 0.001).
- tediousdemise 5y ago
  Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.
    - briefcomment 5y ago
      This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.
      - rrss 5y ago
        > small enough amount produced forever should be safe does 'forever' modify 'produced' or 'should be safe'? if the former, what produces a small amount of the spike protein forever (continuing, not just a small amount one time)?
      - yborg 5y ago
        Why do you think it is produced forever? The mRNA quickly degrades in the body and the injected cells will stop producing the spike protein. That's why there has to be a second injection.
        rzz3 5y ago
        Is there a source? 100% believe you, but due to the conflicting posts I’d love to read the source (and I don’t know what to Google). Thanks!
        5y ago
- platz 5y ago
  It's a question hacker mindset would ask. What follows from first principles given the headline; it's not an unreasonable question, even if there is no empirical evidence the vaccines are unsafe
Alex3917 5y ago
> this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. Downregulation of ACE-2 causes damage, not the spike protein. The spike protein itself causes downregulation, but not enough to cause damage.
retrac 5y ago
It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and the spike protein unit extract ones, all involve getting some of the spike protein either made in the cells, or introduce it directly.
- beagle3 5y ago
  Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all coming out in the last month) show is that the vaccine outcome (specific proteins) that were assumed to be inert and only prime the immune system against the virus, are actually active and damaging. That's a big difference -- and the question of whether it makes sense to vaccinate needs to rely on actual science, not "it's a vaccine so must be good and safe" ideology. It also depends on specific attributes (e.g. age, obesity, etc.) There's an Israeli study showing myocarditis at a rate of 1:20,000 for the 16-30 age bracket, with 1:100,000 overall (all pfizer)[0] ; the US Army stats are 1:250,000 (for a mix of JNJ,Pfizer.Moderna) but I didn't find age distribution - and these are exceptionally lean and fit individuals, compared to the general population.[1] That's just myocarditis ; it it related to what's described in this paper? I don't know. Are there any other issues? I don't know. And generally speaking, no one else does either. But because everyone gets vaccinated, we require exceptional proofs of safety. Or at least, did before 2020. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-between-pfizer-shot-and-heart-problem-in-men-under-30/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-betwe... [1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-tracking-14-cases-of-heart-inflammation-troops-after-covid-19-shots.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-trac...
  - 5y ago
fnordpiglet 5y ago
The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the antigenic protein fragment. Your immune system responds as expected and attacks the antigen carrying things - existing cells included. The inoculated mRNA is quickly broken down because mRNA is a standard process in cell function. Unless the effect observed is due to the antigen the vaccine produces then you wouldn’t expect to see the same behavior in vaccinated humans as they saw experimentally with a full virus, even if some part or the full assembly of the spike is a cause for cellular damage.
- wpasc 5y ago
  From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...
  - yborg 5y ago
    No. From that link "...two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies..." It's a modified version of the spike protein designed as an antibody target, not to identically replicate the spike protein function.
karmicthreat 5y ago
Your body is non-stop taking damage every day. Its when the body can't compensate fast enough that its a problem. The load from an mRNA vaccine is miniscule compared to severe, or moderate covid.
lamontcg 5y ago
The vaccine causes a relatively tiny amount of spike to be produced compared with a raging infection. A little bit of spike trains your body to identify it and neutralize it. A whole lot of spike is toxic to your organs and damages them. To downregulate ACE2 you need a whole lot of receptor activation and a lot of ligands floating around in your system binding to it to cause that. The dose of spike protein matters.
- podgaj 5y ago
  To downregulate ACE2 all you need is a bad enough zinc deficiency.

gameswithgo 5y ago

This has been the clever guy hot take for a few days now. Yet millions of people are walking around vaccinated without damage, so....

ronri19 5y ago
We also have 150+ million people around the world who've had the virus walking around without damage. The point is how should we change our recommendations? Are older people or others with certain medical conditions more susceptible to damage? I don't see how shrugging off this new information is reasonable or scientific.
- podgaj 5y ago
  Start by telling people to take more zinc.
  - podgaj 5y ago
    People downvoting nutrition…I don’t get it…or maybe I do. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457721001431 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... Vitamin D levels had a significant difference between the case and control groups (p = 0.008). Serum calcium and serum zinc levels also had statistically significant differences between the two groups (p < 0.001).
tediousdemise 5y ago
Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.
    - rrss 5y ago
      > small enough amount produced forever should be safe does 'forever' modify 'produced' or 'should be safe'? if the former, what produces a small amount of the spike protein forever (continuing, not just a small amount one time)?
    - yborg 5y ago
      Why do you think it is produced forever? The mRNA quickly degrades in the body and the injected cells will stop producing the spike protein. That's why there has to be a second injection.
      - rzz3 5y ago
        Is there a source? 100% believe you, but due to the conflicting posts I’d love to read the source (and I don’t know what to Google). Thanks!
        5y ago
platz 5y ago
It's a question hacker mindset would ask. What follows from first principles given the headline; it's not an unreasonable question, even if there is no empirical evidence the vaccines are unsafe

Alex3917 5y ago

> this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. Downregulation of ACE-2 causes damage, not the spike protein. The spike protein itself causes downregulation, but not enough to cause damage.

retrac 5y ago

It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and the spike protein unit extract ones, all involve getting some of the spike protein either made in the cells, or introduce it directly.

beagle3 5y ago
Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all coming out in the last month) show is that the vaccine outcome (specific proteins) that were assumed to be inert and only prime the immune system against the virus, are actually active and damaging. That's a big difference -- and the question of whether it makes sense to vaccinate needs to rely on actual science, not "it's a vaccine so must be good and safe" ideology. It also depends on specific attributes (e.g. age, obesity, etc.) There's an Israeli study showing myocarditis at a rate of 1:20,000 for the 16-30 age bracket, with 1:100,000 overall (all pfizer)[0] ; the US Army stats are 1:250,000 (for a mix of JNJ,Pfizer.Moderna) but I didn't find age distribution - and these are exceptionally lean and fit individuals, compared to the general population.[1] That's just myocarditis ; it it related to what's described in this paper? I don't know. Are there any other issues? I don't know. And generally speaking, no one else does either. But because everyone gets vaccinated, we require exceptional proofs of safety. Or at least, did before 2020. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-between-pfizer-shot-and-heart-problem-in-men-under-30/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-betwe... [1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-tracking-14-cases-of-heart-inflammation-troops-after-covid-19-shots.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-trac...
- 5y ago

fnordpiglet 5y ago

The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the antigenic protein fragment. Your immune system responds as expected and attacks the antigen carrying things - existing cells included. The inoculated mRNA is quickly broken down because mRNA is a standard process in cell function. Unless the effect observed is due to the antigen the vaccine produces then you wouldn’t expect to see the same behavior in vaccinated humans as they saw experimentally with a full virus, even if some part or the full assembly of the spike is a cause for cellular damage.

wpasc 5y ago
From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...
- yborg 5y ago
  No. From that link "...two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies..." It's a modified version of the spike protein designed as an antibody target, not to identically replicate the spike protein function.

karmicthreat 5y ago

Your body is non-stop taking damage every day. Its when the body can't compensate fast enough that its a problem. The load from an mRNA vaccine is miniscule compared to severe, or moderate covid.

lamontcg 5y ago

The vaccine causes a relatively tiny amount of spike to be produced compared with a raging infection. A little bit of spike trains your body to identify it and neutralize it. A whole lot of spike is toxic to your organs and damages them. To downregulate ACE2 you need a whole lot of receptor activation and a lot of ligands floating around in your system binding to it to cause that. The dose of spike protein matters.

podgaj 5y ago
To downregulate ACE2 all you need is a bad enough zinc deficiency.