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A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel (and in many cases they were raised in religious families). Over there

by tguvot 6y ago

A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel (and in many cases they were raised in religious families). Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation.

LegitShady 6y ago
>A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel this doesn't mean anything. most people in israel are secular, very secular. >(and in many cases they were raised in religious families) this is a different demographic you're trying to pretend is somehow as numerous as the first group you describe, 'living in israel'. They're a tiny minority of the population. >Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. You're actually talking to a israeli not living in israel any longer who grew up in a religious family. I can tell you firsthand that my brother, who spends hours every day studying gemarah, has a million times more knowledge than me about it. Your suggestion that you 'get exposed to different aspects' makes someone an expert or even informed is false. IT's like 'getting exposed' to physics you never studies because you live in a place where other people study physics - the people studying physics are the experts not their neighbour. >Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation. First, not even as good an understanding as normal orthodox (no need to jump to ultra), or even a someone who is very deeply Conservative. Just because you can't take a bus on a saturday doesn't mean you know the ins and outs of why. Second - that was the whole criticism - that HN discussion of it was very uninformed and specifically because all the experts wouldnt be on while its shabbat, so you're kind of repeating his point there.
- tguvot 6y ago
  You're actually talking to israeli not living in Israel. Yes, most people in Israel are secular or very secular. And a part of reason for it been so, it's the attitude that you exhibit here: if you are not orthodox (or at least not very deeply Conservative) you are not jew (enough). And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    >And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. It's very surface level and not sufficient for a discussion on the technicalities of a religion. It's exactly taking the word of non-experts because they live beside experts - it doesn't give them more than passing surface level knowledge of the things they experience directly. >Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough. Again, the whole criticism was that the discussion occurred exactly when the experts were somewhere else, and that the level of discussion was not 'sufficient enough' - so what you have isn't a point of fact, but a point of an opinion that you think it's 'enough' that the person who raise the point disagrees with. And I agree with them - a discussion on the technicalities of shabbat missing all the people who care enough about shabbat to not be on here is exactly the way to make sure you only have surface level and often entirely wrong discussion. You think it's 'sufficient enough' doesn't make that true - it just means you're not interested in details from the actual experts on the topic. Thats a personal choice you make, but it's only your value judgement as to how much detail you want in the conversation, not a reflection of reality. I'd say his criticism still stands and your reply to it exactly highlights the criticism as correct.
    - tguvot 6y ago
      So, just as I wrote, in your opinion not jewish enough to know technicalities. I had very secular friends friends who read gemara for fun and in order to argue about fine points of religion with religious people. Which is most of the time pointless, because unless person learns it they just follow whatever "rabbi of the year/synagogue/etc" says them to do without actually understanding "technicalities" of it. What you are doing here, it's just a classic orthodox gatekeeping of Judaism which causes many people completely turn off away from it.
      - LegitShady 6y ago
        >o, just as I wrote, in your opinion not jewish enough to know technicalities. No, now you're strawmanning. I didn't say 'not jewish enough' - I said there's a difference between people who study the laws 'religiously' and spend huge amounts of time on it, and people who are largely culturally jewish and haven't invested the same time. It's not a question of 'jewish enough' its a question of time spent acquiring knowledge. >I had very secular friends friends who read gemara for fun and in order to argue about fine points of religion with religious people. My bet is even then, they put in less time then someone for whom it guides their entire life and who is interested in studying it. >Which is most of the time pointless, because unless person learns it they just follow whatever "rabbi of the year/synagogue/etc" says them to do without actually understanding "technicalities" of it. That's not really how it works. >What you are doing here, it's just a classic orthodox gatekeeping of Judaism which causes many people completely turn off away from it. No, what I'm doing is differentiating between different levels of knowledge. People who are jewish are jewish. This has nothing to do with that. There are jewish law experts at the vatican who can probably do a lot better job many orthodox jews. It's a question of knowledge and time spent acquiring knowledge. Knowing the limits of your knowledge and not claiming expertise when you have none is a pretty fundamental character trait to me.

by tguvot 6y ago

LegitShady 6y ago

>A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel this doesn't mean anything. most people in israel are secular, very secular. >(and in many cases they were raised in religious families) this is a different demographic you're trying to pretend is somehow as numerous as the first group you describe, 'living in israel'. They're a tiny minority of the population. >Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. You're actually talking to a israeli not living in israel any longer who grew up in a religious family. I can tell you firsthand that my brother, who spends hours every day studying gemarah, has a million times more knowledge than me about it. Your suggestion that you 'get exposed to different aspects' makes someone an expert or even informed is false. IT's like 'getting exposed' to physics you never studies because you live in a place where other people study physics - the people studying physics are the experts not their neighbour. >Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation. First, not even as good an understanding as normal orthodox (no need to jump to ultra), or even a someone who is very deeply Conservative. Just because you can't take a bus on a saturday doesn't mean you know the ins and outs of why. Second - that was the whole criticism - that HN discussion of it was very uninformed and specifically because all the experts wouldnt be on while its shabbat, so you're kind of repeating his point there.

tguvot 6y ago
You're actually talking to israeli not living in Israel. Yes, most people in Israel are secular or very secular. And a part of reason for it been so, it's the attitude that you exhibit here: if you are not orthodox (or at least not very deeply Conservative) you are not jew (enough). And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  >And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. It's very surface level and not sufficient for a discussion on the technicalities of a religion. It's exactly taking the word of non-experts because they live beside experts - it doesn't give them more than passing surface level knowledge of the things they experience directly. >Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough. Again, the whole criticism was that the discussion occurred exactly when the experts were somewhere else, and that the level of discussion was not 'sufficient enough' - so what you have isn't a point of fact, but a point of an opinion that you think it's 'enough' that the person who raise the point disagrees with. And I agree with them - a discussion on the technicalities of shabbat missing all the people who care enough about shabbat to not be on here is exactly the way to make sure you only have surface level and often entirely wrong discussion. You think it's 'sufficient enough' doesn't make that true - it just means you're not interested in details from the actual experts on the topic. Thats a personal choice you make, but it's only your value judgement as to how much detail you want in the conversation, not a reflection of reality. I'd say his criticism still stands and your reply to it exactly highlights the criticism as correct.
  - tguvot 6y ago
    So, just as I wrote, in your opinion not jewish enough to know technicalities. I had very secular friends friends who read gemara for fun and in order to argue about fine points of religion with religious people. Which is most of the time pointless, because unless person learns it they just follow whatever "rabbi of the year/synagogue/etc" says them to do without actually understanding "technicalities" of it. What you are doing here, it's just a classic orthodox gatekeeping of Judaism which causes many people completely turn off away from it.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      >o, just as I wrote, in your opinion not jewish enough to know technicalities. No, now you're strawmanning. I didn't say 'not jewish enough' - I said there's a difference between people who study the laws 'religiously' and spend huge amounts of time on it, and people who are largely culturally jewish and haven't invested the same time. It's not a question of 'jewish enough' its a question of time spent acquiring knowledge. >I had very secular friends friends who read gemara for fun and in order to argue about fine points of religion with religious people. My bet is even then, they put in less time then someone for whom it guides their entire life and who is interested in studying it. >Which is most of the time pointless, because unless person learns it they just follow whatever "rabbi of the year/synagogue/etc" says them to do without actually understanding "technicalities" of it. That's not really how it works. >What you are doing here, it's just a classic orthodox gatekeeping of Judaism which causes many people completely turn off away from it. No, what I'm doing is differentiating between different levels of knowledge. People who are jewish are jewish. This has nothing to do with that. There are jewish law experts at the vatican who can probably do a lot better job many orthodox jews. It's a question of knowledge and time spent acquiring knowledge. Knowing the limits of your knowledge and not claiming expertise when you have none is a pretty fundamental character trait to me.