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Note that no one callled them Normans before the 1800s. They called themselves English when they conquered Ireland. The Irish (Gaels) called them Saxons (Sassen
by barry-cotter 6y ago
Note that no one callled them Normans before the 1800s. They called themselves English when they conquered Ireland. The Irish (Gaels) called them Saxons (Sassenach) or foreigners (Gall). After the conversion of the English to Protestantism there was a yawning chasm between the Old English (Catholic) and the New, but no one ever used Norman contemporaneously.
- rm445 6y agoThat can't be right. The Normans as a people played a major part in European history from at least the year 911 through the Hundred Years War (1337-1453). I've never seen the faintest indication that they weren't still called Normans after leaving Normandy, by themselves and others, e.g when invading England and Italy. I guess you meant more that the term fell out of use in England at some point, and Norman-descended people in England called themselves English. But even so, Norman is still a recognisable ethnicity - norse people who settled in France, spread by conquest into England, Malta etc. It could be a useful contemporary or historical label even if those people at a given time called themselves something else.
- barry-cotter 6y agoThe people who invaded England and Italy were called Normans. The people who invaded Ireland called themselves English, and were called English by the Irish.
- selimthegrim 6y agoA different group of Norse invaded Ireland before they did England IIRC (hence why Norse-Gaels is a thing). But the Normans who invaded Ireland came via Wales largely and were not called English until the 16th century https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubgaill_and_Finngaill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubgaill_and_Finngaill
- barry-cotter 6y agoThe article you link to is talking about the Vikings, not the Normans. If you can find a primary or secondary source saying they called themselves anything other than English of be delighted to see it.
- selimthegrim 6y agoThe wiki on Normans in Ireland cites Brenden Bradshaw on what the Irish called them but that applied only to Donegal apparently.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> Note that no one callled them Normans before the 1800s ... no one ever used Norman contemporaneously Are you claiming that the Duchy of Normandy is a post 1800 ret-conned invention? You think it never actually existed?
- barry-cotter 6y agoThe people who invaded Ireland from England and Wales called themselves English.
- chrisseaton 6y agoBut the Normans are a real people going back over a thousand years.
- barry-cotter 6y agoI neglected to add “in an Irish context”. No Normans ever invaded Ireland. A great many English did, the military leadership of whom were mostly descended from those who conquered England a bit over a century prior.