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Angles and saxons were 2 tribes from modern day Germany who migrated to England for better farming and conditions. They're a very small part of "white". A very

Angles and saxons were 2 tribes from modern day Germany who migrated to England for better farming and conditions. They're a very small part of "white". A very small part even of "British" descent. Even in England, not everyone is Anglo Saxon, the ruling classes are Norman, there are Celts still, Cornish people count themselves out, Londoners date back to pre-Roman times, vikings settled some areas...

jcranmer 6y ago
Actually, the term Anglo-Saxon refers to the traditionally three tribes (and probably at least four tribes) who emigrated from the Frisian coast region (North Sea coasts of Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands): the Jutes (traditionally originating from Jutland, the main Danish peninsula), the Angles (traditionally from the neck that is part Danish and part German), and the Saxons (which would have been from what is now northern Germany). The fourth group of the Frisian coast is of course the Frisians, (originating from what is now northern Netherlands), and while they are not traditionally held to have been part of the emigration, it's thought that they also made the journey. Frisian today is one of the closest languages to English. It also doesn't help that our literary sources for this period are very few, non-contemporary (i.e., talking about what happened a few centuries ago), and reliant on state societies talking about non-state societies. Naturally, they use inconsistent terminology for talking about the ethnicity of who is where, and the term "Saxon" appears to be pretty interchangeable for much of northern Germany. The modern term "Anglo-Saxon" thus effectively means "English German," arising largely to distinguish the Saxons who lived in England from those who lived in Germany. Functionally speaking, you can divide the ethnicities of Britain into 5: the original Celtic speakers, the Romanized Celtics who were part of the province of Britannia, the first wave of Germanic immigrants (Anglo-Saxons), the second wave of Germanic immigrants (the Norse), and the third wave of Germanic immigrants (the Normans), this one largely limited to a very small ruling class.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Thanks, that's a great comment! One question, do the Normans count as Germanic? I thought they were from Scandinavia originally and then spent enough time in France to pick up the language?
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    Old Norse culture is very clearly linked to Germanic cultures. Linguistically, the descendants of Germanic languages are broken up into North Germanic (modern Scandinavian languages), West Germanic (English, Dutch, and modern German, along with siblings), and East Germanic (now all extinct). We can also see clear parallels between Norse and Germanic religion. I'm less certain of similarities in other areas of culture, but I would be shocked if they were much greater than the linguistic or religious evidence would imply. It is not at all wrong to call Norse Germanic. It is much less clear if Normans should also count as Germanic. I wrote it as such mostly for the pun of having England be invaded by three waves of Germanic peoples from three different places. The actual reality is murkier, as the Normans themselves are an amalgamation of existing Breton, Gallo-Romanic, and Frankish (another Germanic people!) peoples with a hefty Norse influx both before and after the ceding of territory to Rollo. It's probably more accurate to say that the Normans represent a new cultural identity which is a fusion of several that came before it, just as the English did with their several invasions, or the French did during their centralization push in the Early Modern.
- jhgb 6y ago
  > The modern term "Anglo-Saxon" thus effectively means "English German" But that's surely an anachronism, since correctly it would need to be "Danish German"?

jcranmer 6y ago

Actually, the term Anglo-Saxon refers to the traditionally three tribes (and probably at least four tribes) who emigrated from the Frisian coast region (North Sea coasts of Denmark, Germany, and the Netherlands): the Jutes (traditionally originating from Jutland, the main Danish peninsula), the Angles (traditionally from the neck that is part Danish and part German), and the Saxons (which would have been from what is now northern Germany). The fourth group of the Frisian coast is of course the Frisians, (originating from what is now northern Netherlands), and while they are not traditionally held to have been part of the emigration, it's thought that they also made the journey. Frisian today is one of the closest languages to English. It also doesn't help that our literary sources for this period are very few, non-contemporary (i.e., talking about what happened a few centuries ago), and reliant on state societies talking about non-state societies. Naturally, they use inconsistent terminology for talking about the ethnicity of who is where, and the term "Saxon" appears to be pretty interchangeable for much of northern Germany. The modern term "Anglo-Saxon" thus effectively means "English German," arising largely to distinguish the Saxons who lived in England from those who lived in Germany. Functionally speaking, you can divide the ethnicities of Britain into 5: the original Celtic speakers, the Romanized Celtics who were part of the province of Britannia, the first wave of Germanic immigrants (Anglo-Saxons), the second wave of Germanic immigrants (the Norse), and the third wave of Germanic immigrants (the Normans), this one largely limited to a very small ruling class.

LatteLazy 6y ago
Thanks, that's a great comment! One question, do the Normans count as Germanic? I thought they were from Scandinavia originally and then spent enough time in France to pick up the language?
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Old Norse culture is very clearly linked to Germanic cultures. Linguistically, the descendants of Germanic languages are broken up into North Germanic (modern Scandinavian languages), West Germanic (English, Dutch, and modern German, along with siblings), and East Germanic (now all extinct). We can also see clear parallels between Norse and Germanic religion. I'm less certain of similarities in other areas of culture, but I would be shocked if they were much greater than the linguistic or religious evidence would imply. It is not at all wrong to call Norse Germanic. It is much less clear if Normans should also count as Germanic. I wrote it as such mostly for the pun of having England be invaded by three waves of Germanic peoples from three different places. The actual reality is murkier, as the Normans themselves are an amalgamation of existing Breton, Gallo-Romanic, and Frankish (another Germanic people!) peoples with a hefty Norse influx both before and after the ceding of territory to Rollo. It's probably more accurate to say that the Normans represent a new cultural identity which is a fusion of several that came before it, just as the English did with their several invasions, or the French did during their centralization push in the Early Modern.
jhgb 6y ago
> The modern term "Anglo-Saxon" thus effectively means "English German" But that's surely an anachronism, since correctly it would need to be "Danish German"?