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Loved the obsessiveness! FWIW the entire beer-brewing industry runs on NaOH for cleaning and sanitising. Disposing of it is not quite as environmentally-friendl

Loved the obsessiveness! FWIW the entire beer-brewing industry runs on NaOH for cleaning and sanitising. Disposing of it is not quite as environmentally-friendly as the dishwasher manufacturer seems to want you to believe -- in most places you'd be in serious trouble if you poured any significant quantity down the drain. eta: I've just looked up the constituents of the dishwasher tablets we've been using, and yes, indeed, they're mostly NaOH, an inert carrier (Na2SO4) and a variety of water-softeners, packaging films to keep everything in tablet form (but soluble) and a small number of helper enzymes, perfumes and whiteners. Looks like a teaspoon of NaOH might work justabout as well. :D

jiggawatts 5y ago
Sodium hydroxide is only dangerous if concentrated. Diluted, and especially if it is mixed with wastewater, it'll just react with the various organics to form soap-like chemicals. If anything, it'll help clean your sewage pipes! PS: Most draincleaners are just a concentrated NaOH mixture. Consumers pour them down their drain all the time and nobody worries about this either...
- cortesoft 5y ago
  My plumber always tells me never to use drain cleaners, so I wouldn’t say nobody worries about it...
  - gallexme 5y ago
    But u happily eat it on pretzels? There's no issue in low concentrations
    - martey 5y ago
      Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is lye, which shouldn't be consumed. Pretzel salt is sodium chloride (NaCL).
      - kortex 5y ago
        Nope, pretzels are made with lye (NaOH). That's how you get the tasty brown Maillard reaction coating - boil the dough in lye water, then bake, then salt it.
        skykooler 5y ago
        Though it doesn't have to be lye - you can use other less caustic bases, such as baking soda.
      - theptip 5y ago
        Some traditional pretzel/bagel recipes use lye: https://www.bakespace.com/recipes/detail/Soft-Pretzels-using-lye/45579 https://www.bakespace.com/recipes/detail/Soft-Pretzels-using...
      - mbernstein 5y ago
        Lye is used in the creation of pretzels and bagels.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        In German, I think their full name is Laugenbrezel. The full name may not be much used[1] colloquially, because it's implied -- but bread rolls made the same way are definitely called Laugenbrötchen. "Lauge" is German for "lye". They're called that because they're made with it. [1]: Though when I switched my phone keyboard to German just now to test it out, the predictive spelling corrector suggested "Laugenbrezel", not "-brötchen", when I'd got as far as "Laugenb".
    - spijdar 5y ago
      People most certainly don't eat sodium hydroxide on their pretzels anymore than they eat raw egg in their cakes. Coating pretzels with lye before baking causes a chemical reaction that consumes the lye. You really, really shouldn't ingest any amount of lye, lest it react with the inside of your squishy organic matter like the surface of pretzel dough...
  - Spivak 5y ago
    You should avoid drain cleaners because in high concentrations they corrode metal. The compound is fine in your dishwasher because it will fully react and neutralize in your plastic or coated metal dishwasher casing.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Your plumber tells you to never use something that might result in you not needing his services? Imagine that!
    - spijdar 5y ago
      Devil's advocate: the back of those drain cleaner solutions make a point that the solution should never sit or pool in any surface or pipe. You have to run water and chase it down so it doesn't corrode the pipes. I know where I live some of the pipes have "flow issues" because of bad design, and if there was already a partial blockage I can see drain cleaner corroding the pipes... We just mechanically clean them out ourselves, anyway.
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        Maybe if you have metal drain pipes. They sell the stuff in plastic bottles. If you have PVC drain pipes, it isn't going to disolve them.
    - pfranz 5y ago
      If you ask them why they say its because it'll often dissolve the pipes before the blockage. Most of the trades people I talk to aren't looking to maximize their work. I've had them turn down jobs for being too gross and I don't blame them. They'll generally use a snake/auger. Home Depot sells a basic one for $15. The beefier, further reaching ones cost more. Or, for smaller jobs, there are single-use plastic snakes.
environment 5y ago
For my own dishwasher I’m using a mix of Potassium hydroxide (Potash), Sodium hypochlorite (Bleach) and Sodium tripolyphosphate (Phosphates). This is strong stuff, so make sure hoses/tubes, seals and connections are compatible if anyone wants to try this. Instead of rinse aid I’m using a 50% citric acid/water solution. The final rinse is at 85c or 185f. The stuff dries instantly. A built in fan/condensation system prevents moisture inside and outside the machine. I’m using two commercial grade peristaltic pumps for the chemicals. I have also considered an enzyme pre-wash; Protease and Amylase. The diswasher is commercial grade, but the racks and operation is just like a normal household dishwasher. Drinking glasses come out spotless. Rinse Aid is not necessary. I hold them up to the sunlight for inspection and I see nothing.
- bittercynic 5y ago
  I'd be interested in reading more about this setup if you ever do a write up.
  - environment 5y ago
    I will try to make a video or write about this sometime :) The feedback would be helpful and I care about people having an ideal dishwashing machine that operates with the least cognitive load.
- vxNsr 5y ago
  Yes please share what country you’re in and what equipment you use? This is very interesting. I’ve come to the conclusion that buying “consumer” or even “prosumer” appliances is a lost cause, all the brands use the same 3 white label Chinese manufacturers and you get the same quality no matter what you buy, you can expect to be shopping for a new appliance in <5 years time. I’m hopeful that commercial appliances aren’t yet at that stage, you end up paying a significant premium but you save in time and lost effort when you don’t have to deal with buying a new one so soon.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    > I’ve come to the conclusion that buying “consumer” or even “prosumer” appliances is a lost cause, all the brands use the same 3 white label Chinese manufacturers and you get the same quality no matter what you buy, you can expect to be shopping for a new appliance in <5 years time. In general that's very true across industry now. For more information on this white labeling phenomenon this documentary is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTgLKNb5R0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTgLKNb5R0
skykooler 5y ago
Couldn't you dispose of it by mixing it with an acid first to turn it into a neutral salt?
- mafuy 5y ago
  Doesn't that produce toxic fumes?

jiggawatts 5y ago

Sodium hydroxide is only dangerous if concentrated. Diluted, and especially if it is mixed with wastewater, it'll just react with the various organics to form soap-like chemicals. If anything, it'll help clean your sewage pipes! PS: Most draincleaners are just a concentrated NaOH mixture. Consumers pour them down their drain all the time and nobody worries about this either...

cortesoft 5y ago
My plumber always tells me never to use drain cleaners, so I wouldn’t say nobody worries about it...
- gallexme 5y ago
  But u happily eat it on pretzels? There's no issue in low concentrations
  - martey 5y ago
    Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is lye, which shouldn't be consumed. Pretzel salt is sodium chloride (NaCL).
    - kortex 5y ago
      Nope, pretzels are made with lye (NaOH). That's how you get the tasty brown Maillard reaction coating - boil the dough in lye water, then bake, then salt it.
      - skykooler 5y ago
        Though it doesn't have to be lye - you can use other less caustic bases, such as baking soda.
    - theptip 5y ago
      Some traditional pretzel/bagel recipes use lye: https://www.bakespace.com/recipes/detail/Soft-Pretzels-using-lye/45579 https://www.bakespace.com/recipes/detail/Soft-Pretzels-using...
    - mbernstein 5y ago
      Lye is used in the creation of pretzels and bagels.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      In German, I think their full name is Laugenbrezel. The full name may not be much used[1] colloquially, because it's implied -- but bread rolls made the same way are definitely called Laugenbrötchen. "Lauge" is German for "lye". They're called that because they're made with it. [1]: Though when I switched my phone keyboard to German just now to test it out, the predictive spelling corrector suggested "Laugenbrezel", not "-brötchen", when I'd got as far as "Laugenb".
  - spijdar 5y ago
    People most certainly don't eat sodium hydroxide on their pretzels anymore than they eat raw egg in their cakes. Coating pretzels with lye before baking causes a chemical reaction that consumes the lye. You really, really shouldn't ingest any amount of lye, lest it react with the inside of your squishy organic matter like the surface of pretzel dough...
- Spivak 5y ago
  You should avoid drain cleaners because in high concentrations they corrode metal. The compound is fine in your dishwasher because it will fully react and neutralize in your plastic or coated metal dishwasher casing.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Your plumber tells you to never use something that might result in you not needing his services? Imagine that!
  - spijdar 5y ago
    Devil's advocate: the back of those drain cleaner solutions make a point that the solution should never sit or pool in any surface or pipe. You have to run water and chase it down so it doesn't corrode the pipes. I know where I live some of the pipes have "flow issues" because of bad design, and if there was already a partial blockage I can see drain cleaner corroding the pipes... We just mechanically clean them out ourselves, anyway.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Maybe if you have metal drain pipes. They sell the stuff in plastic bottles. If you have PVC drain pipes, it isn't going to disolve them.
  - pfranz 5y ago
    If you ask them why they say its because it'll often dissolve the pipes before the blockage. Most of the trades people I talk to aren't looking to maximize their work. I've had them turn down jobs for being too gross and I don't blame them. They'll generally use a snake/auger. Home Depot sells a basic one for $15. The beefier, further reaching ones cost more. Or, for smaller jobs, there are single-use plastic snakes.

environment 5y ago

For my own dishwasher I’m using a mix of Potassium hydroxide (Potash), Sodium hypochlorite (Bleach) and Sodium tripolyphosphate (Phosphates). This is strong stuff, so make sure hoses/tubes, seals and connections are compatible if anyone wants to try this. Instead of rinse aid I’m using a 50% citric acid/water solution. The final rinse is at 85c or 185f. The stuff dries instantly. A built in fan/condensation system prevents moisture inside and outside the machine. I’m using two commercial grade peristaltic pumps for the chemicals. I have also considered an enzyme pre-wash; Protease and Amylase. The diswasher is commercial grade, but the racks and operation is just like a normal household dishwasher. Drinking glasses come out spotless. Rinse Aid is not necessary. I hold them up to the sunlight for inspection and I see nothing.

bittercynic 5y ago
I'd be interested in reading more about this setup if you ever do a write up.
- environment 5y ago
  I will try to make a video or write about this sometime :) The feedback would be helpful and I care about people having an ideal dishwashing machine that operates with the least cognitive load.
vxNsr 5y ago
Yes please share what country you’re in and what equipment you use? This is very interesting. I’ve come to the conclusion that buying “consumer” or even “prosumer” appliances is a lost cause, all the brands use the same 3 white label Chinese manufacturers and you get the same quality no matter what you buy, you can expect to be shopping for a new appliance in <5 years time. I’m hopeful that commercial appliances aren’t yet at that stage, you end up paying a significant premium but you save in time and lost effort when you don’t have to deal with buying a new one so soon.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  > I’ve come to the conclusion that buying “consumer” or even “prosumer” appliances is a lost cause, all the brands use the same 3 white label Chinese manufacturers and you get the same quality no matter what you buy, you can expect to be shopping for a new appliance in <5 years time. In general that's very true across industry now. For more information on this white labeling phenomenon this documentary is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTgLKNb5R0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTgLKNb5R0

skykooler 5y ago

Couldn't you dispose of it by mixing it with an acid first to turn it into a neutral salt?

mafuy 5y ago
Doesn't that produce toxic fumes?