8 ms·

A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

73 points by spyckie2 5y ago

spacemanmatt 5y ago
I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. This seems like a very narrow take on activism.
- Veen 5y ago
  Activism is necessarily divisive unless everyone already agrees on a political ideology and the solutions to issues activists focus on. If you are an activist, you might think this is a good thing—it may please you to create an environment hostile to people you don't agree with. But if you're trying to run a company, division is antithetical to your goals.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    If you run a company with problems so deep that people have to turn activist about them, maybe the division didn't start with activists.
    - Veen 5y ago
      That assumes the activists are in the right. You’ve chosen a side. Would you say “the division didn’t start with the activists” if it was conservative activists advocating for modest dress codes or similar? Your position assumes that progressive activists are correct, justified in bringing their politics to work, and that if they have a problem it’s the company’s fault. But you have to work with people you might disagree with, including conservatives, religious people, and so on. The point of keeping activism out of business is so that people with differing politics can work together. If you can't in good conscience do that, the honorable thing to do is resign, as happened at Basecamp.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        Activism for modest dress codes? I'll just excuse myself, here. That is a farce compared to the subject at hand.
        disposekinetics 5y ago
        I believe you understand why someone would object to the above, but are not willing to universalize it.
        spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I am unwilling to universalize a principle I believe to have only a farcical connection to the one at hand. So you're partly correct about me.
        Veen 5y ago
        I understand you find it cognitively and rhetorically convenient to focus on an example rather than the point it’s exemplifying. But, if you’re capable of imagining alternative viewpoints, try swapping the example to one more to your taste to help you focus on the argument.
        spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I do not consider it valuable to try to reason about fuzzy matters using only edge cases. It's not a matter of ability, but of value.
        Veen 5y ago
        I agree it's a low value discussion, but I'm just fascinated that every comment you make exemplifies my point better than I did. The popularity of your style of interaction is precisely why policitcs should be kept out of the workplace.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    > But if you're trying to run a company, division is antithetical to your goals Weird because at companies like Apple where I worked diversity in viewpoints was an important part of the fabric of the company. But then again they don't seem to be doing so well.
    - Veen 5y ago
      You know better than I what goes on in Apple, so I’m happy to hear they are committed to supporting and learning from employees with diverse political viewpoints beyond the usual California progressivism, including conservatism. It’s certainly not obvious that’s the case to an outsider. (If you’ll allow me an irrelevant aside, your snarky sarcasm, point missing, and cleverer-than-thou ironic posturing makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. But perhaps it’s considered polite where you’re from. I’m happy to learn.)
- jpdus 5y ago
  Came here to say the same. I disagree strongly with the premise of the article and think it has logical flaws. Aren't you more of a mercenary if you put personal believes and convictions aside, just to serve your employer as he wants, without asking questions or trying to do the right thing? Can a fellowship or ("a group of people that join together for a common purpose or interest") really form around an SaaS-/Adtech-/SocialMedia-Startup whose main goal is to make the founders rich?
- sampo 5y ago
  > I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. If you are doing activism, in the workplace, that runs against the beliefs and opinions of (some of the) the people you work with. How could this be anything but anti-fellowship?
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    I see that many assumptions are made about the value of fellowship and the effects of activism. And this is why I disagree with the premise -- I can't start with those assumptions.
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    Which beliefs and opinions? What if I'm arguing that our non-white employees are being passed over for promotions, and our women employees are all chronically underpaid compared to the men? How would that be more anti-fellowship than your fellows not being paid equitably?
    - scaryclam 5y ago
      What if you're arguing that women should stay at home, or that climate change is fake, or immigrants are a blight on society? It works both ways I'm afraid. And many people will think that those opinions are somehow good for society and that they're being good team players by pushing them.
      - pavel_lishin 5y ago
        It does not work both ways when the things I'm arguing for are directly impacting my fellow coworkers, and are the results of direct decisions by the higher ups. It's not a question of society at that point, it's a question of what's good for the company. OP loves his fellowship analogy, but you can't have a fellowship where the halflings are only getting half-rations and Gandalf refuses to let the Dwarves participate in half of their endeavours.
seibelj 5y ago
Another problem with politics-in-the-workplace is it seems like there is only one accepted political dogma. If people were constantly blasted in the face with my politics they would be very annoyed. But I’m supposed to accept their politics unquestionably. Totally agree with this article - just do your job and get on the soap box during your own time.
- blowski 5y ago
  Your comment begs the question: what is politics? Discouraging people from voting for Trump? Pushing for equal pay across genders? Believing the business should do more to diversify its hiring? Pushing for transgender bathrooms? Being opposed to working on defense contracts? For some people, these conversations are “obvious facts”, not politics.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    All of the above are highly political. There are people who feel very strongly on either side of those positions.
  - bonoboTP 5y ago
    What is religion? For some people the Ten Commandments and the need to follow the Lord Jesus Christ are facts. It's the very creator of the universe ordering things! Or the laws in the Quran are undisputed truths for some, not some wishy-washy matter of debate. How did we ever manage to get past that? A lot of tribal, identity-based politics is much like religion in this way. For the believers it's simply truth. For outsiders it's just one faith out of many that you should keep private in a secular society.
  - howfrontoage 5y ago
    Too much politics is the stuff that gets one fired. After a few iterations the calibration might be reached.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  What is "politics"? Where do you draw the line? "I'm going to pick up my kid at school this afternoon, because otherwise he has to spend over an hour on the bus. It would be nice if they had more school buses so kids wouldn't have to deal with such long bus rides." "Excuse me, Becky, but you cannot be discussing local politics in the workplace. That's a fireable offense, you know."
aspaceman 5y ago
Why is that every, single article that gets posted on this subject at HN completely ignores the “funny names” list that actually caused this incident. Folks keep acting like it was kids screaming BLM on the company message board and it’s kind of infuriatingly disingenuous. It feels almost purposeful that folks are ignoring the specific political grievance that employees had, and they are framing it as activist pressure. I’m genuinely impressed at Basecamps ability to completely control the conversation, and I’m incredibly annoyed that articles posted here about it have completely ignored this argument. It was a specific political act that upset employees - they didn’t “want to just post activism all day instead of working.” That argument is so manufactured it’s painful, and I’m dissapointed a bunch of educated professionals can’t see the manipulation at play. “I just want to work at work. I don’t need activism in my workplace.” is an opinion entirely tangential to the actual events. But it’s what people hear want to talk about I guess. It’s good business sense for an internal team to say “You shouldn’t have a funny names list. If that got out it’d be PR hell for the company. It’s bad business and not related to work.” That’s how these complaints should have been taken.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Do you have any links to the incident for the uninitiated?
  - ryanbrunner 5y ago
    This is a good overview: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406673/basecamp-political-speech-policy-controversy https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406673/basecamp-politic... For DHH's response: https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e
- StavrosK 5y ago
  This is probably less about Basecamp and more about the "straw that broke the camel's back" of people being tired of activists being so loud. Semi-unrelatedly, I noticed something interesting: People who try to solve problem X seem to dislike other people who try to solve the same problem in a slightly different way almost as much as they dislike the people who cause X in the first place. I find myself being put off similarly, and it's completely irrational that I'd be put off that someone is against racism as much as I am, but has a different idea of what a solution might look like. Being aware of that is probably a good step towards fixing it, so I wanted to mention it here.
tobr 5y ago
If you examine any two values that you believe in close enough, you can find a place where they rub against each other. That friction doesn’t mean one is “anti” the other, just that you sometimes need to find a way to compromise. A claim that pro-activism is anti-fellowship is only true if you are dogmatic and uncompromising about putting your fellowship first. Such a fellowship is otherwise known as a ‘cult’.
- WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
  And activism is when you're pushing a competing cult.
  - ali0sha 5y ago
    Let's be clear, the 'activism' in question (at basecamp) is anti-racism. And if anti-racism is a competing cult, then you might want to switch sides.
    - camelite 5y ago
      Being unable to countenance good faith disagreement is not a persuasive argument against your ideology being a cult. As an alternative approach, you can cut the gordian knot of being against anti-racism without being in favor of racism by simply noting that the thing is not what it calls itself.
    - username90 5y ago
      Self proclaimed anti racists are often pro racism which leads to problems in workplaces where you have to work with a diverse set of individuals.
ryanbrunner 5y ago
Obviously, we can't know the exact particulars of how every argument went down at Basecamp, and we have to intuit an awful lot from fairly limited blog posts by Jason, DHH, and tweets from (mostly ex)-employees. But it feels like there's a pretty clear pattern that this wasn't a case of a few politically motivated employees being a distraction and disrupting an otherwise harmonious environment. A third of the company joined the DEI initiative that was disbanded. On twitter, anonymous interviews, and any other source that I've seen, not one Basecamper has come out in support of Jason and David, and employees seem universally aligned against their actions. If anything, I'd say the likeliest source of "anti-fellowship" here is Jason and DHH. They are in charge, so they are able to do that, but "fellowship" isn't a good term to describe getting in line behind the bosses' decisions regardless of your personal opinion.
- jacob2484 5y ago
  "On twitter, anonymous interviews, and any other source that I've seen, not one Basecamper has come out in support of Jason and David, and employees seem universally aligned against their actions." Why would they in this cancel culture poison of today - so they can be vilified for not agreeing with some extreme leftist position? More than likely there's a silent majority that DOES align with their action, and that should be OK.
  - ryanbrunner 5y ago
    I can't help but feel that you've already decided your stance on this, and evidence is sort of irrelevant. 19 people resigned, and 20+ people thought that this was an important issue based on their participation in the DEI committee. 2 people are advocating on the other side. Why would the default assumption be that the remaining ~35 people side with Jason and DHH on this matter?
- fpig 5y ago
  I mean, reading this: https://janeyang.org/2021/04/27/an-open-letter-to-jason-and-david/ https://janeyang.org/2021/04/27/an-open-letter-to-jason-and-... It does seem like it may have been a case of some politically motivated employees being disruptive. The part that is just irredeemable is: > I thought about it through COVID-19, as HEY launched in the midst of a civil rights uprising and we toiled over the customer support cases of people who could afford to pay $99/year for personal email. This sounds like the person is complaining that their supposedly privileged customers distracted her from activism. If she has a problem working for "people who could afford to pay $99/year for personal email" then she should probably find a different job where she will serve a demographic that is more palatable to her.
bantunes 5y ago
I understand both sides of this conversation. And can't help but think that politics crossing over to the workplace (where we spend a big chunk of our time) is overall good, since democracy hasn't really taken hold at the office in general. For how much longer can we expect people to demand society to be progressive and equal at large and still cope with these small quasi-feudal (at worst) fiefdoms we spend 8+ hours a day in? Still, Twitter and social media in general have not prepared us to have these discussions at all, and I expect that for this notion to thrive, whole new businesses based on activism and equality and work to have to be created. More Mondragóns, fewer Coinbases. A difference here is workplace activism and not persecution of thoughtcrime, MAGA followers and so on. Except when they believe in Jewish space lasers, of course.
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WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
I disagree that activism makes you a "mercenary". If anything, I think of myself at work as a mercenary who is good to his word, and does what he's fucking paid to do, without bringing his personal beliefs into it. If it grates on my conscience, I don't take the contract in the first place. It's a professional thing to do, dammit. Activism at the workplace is as far as one can get from either fellowship or a mercenary camp: it's your personal beliefs and values above all else, at all cost. Screw the work, screw the colleagues, screw the company, I need to preach on the company dime, or improve stuff no one has asked me to improve.
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peter_retief 5y ago
It is also very boring for those of us who have no interest in other peoples outrage.
hugoromano 5y ago
Some years ago I had manager that replied to a staff member ”you are paid to work, not to think or speak”. Yep, the company went bust. People need to be cared for, if they want to talk about Pluto and politics, let them and listen. This all goes back to a passive vs active operations. The pandemic created too much active work, online meetings.
- randompwd 5y ago
  Some years ago I had manager that replied to a staff member ”you are paid to work, not to think or speak”. Yep, the company went on to become a billion dollar mega-success and everyone lived happily ever after. These conclusion forming anecdotes in the small from a single moment in time between don't provide a strong base for causal arguments.
dools 5y ago
Spoken like a true racist
clearcarbon 5y ago
Work is political - saying that people should get on with work without discussing "political topics" prevents them from discussing and solving the issues within their own work. Yes there is a need to make sure work that directly brings money into the organisation gets done but part of that work is making sure everyone everyone works equally. "There's no way the ring is getting to Mordor if Gimli is pushing for elf reparations." This suggests we can't deal with more than one thing at once. We can deal with the big bad of our generation (I would argue climate change), while also improving the material condition of disadvantaged people across society.
- scruffyherder 5y ago
  How do I inject this into my SQL?
- HKH2 5y ago
  In which company does everyone work equally?
- drukenemo 5y ago
  It depends on what you refer as political. Saying a certain president is crap and making an open invitation to a protest against him or her is not the same as discussing your views on things that directly affect your work performance.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    Both are overtly political.
- deleted 5y ago
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- cblang 5y ago
  > improving the material condition of disadvantaged people across society. The average modern activist in software organizations is well educated, underperforming in terms of actual code contributions and a master at forming committees, work groups and assuming power. This activist fights for keeping his/her own job while others are doing the work. Classic leftist/pro-worker policies have been extinct since at least the 1990s.
threeseed 5y ago
It would have been nice to see a nuanced, thoughtful, insightful look at the various viewpoints that exist within this complex issue. Because many parts of this "activism" are important e.g. how women are treated in IT or what values does a company need to defend in this modern age. Instead we get an utterly cringeworthy "everyone should just be quiet and follow the wisdom of Lord of the Rings" which adds absolutely nothing to the discourse. Flagged.
- mellosouls 5y ago
  The analogy is unfortunately nerdy, but flagging it is over the top. That sort of behaviour plays into the hands of those who believe that criticism of social activists is shut down by sympathisers rather than countered with civil argument.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    This is a low-information, immature piece of work that adds absolutely nothing constructive. It does not deserve to be amplified by HN.
  - Lazare 5y ago
    I disagree. I do disagree with Basecamp's policy, but I certainly wouldn't flag someone for arguing in favour of it. But I'm not sure I'd consider the linked post an argument in favour of it either; that implies that it contained an argument, but this seemed to just be a vague hand wave at popular culture, following by a bare assertion. Okay, how about "the Rebels were good, and the Empire was bad; the Rebels were a group organised for a common purpose, and so is a labour union, so the Rebels are like a union, so you should join your local union, because otherwise Palpatine will win"? Is that all we need? One reason I wouldn't flag an argument I disagreed with is because the comments would be an excellent place to see people discussing, refuting, or affirming the points being made. But with something like this...what's to discuss? Or refute? The entire post would make at least as much sense (which is to say, not much) if you just flipped the conclusion and left the body alone. ("Fellowship means looking after everyone and not sacrificing people for the greater good, mercenaries just go to work, do their job, and go home without caring about right and wrong or thinking what the job is, etc.")
faichai 5y ago
I’ve never really experienced activism per-se in the workplace. Master/slave in the code base was raised as an issue but that’s about it! I have, however, worked in an organisation that transitioned from a clear fellowship of everyone working towards a common goal and putting their other concerns on hold to one where you felt your interests were competing. I ultimately left because of this transition (life is too short!), and it’s interesting that it was the introduction of self-interested, mercenary sales guys and a commercially oriented CEO that triggered it. I like fellowship/mercenary dichotomy.
thom 5y ago
Some forms of fellowship are more important than others.
fredgrott 5y ago
you know when the women's movement started in the USA centered around both prohibition and union protection against black lung disease they did not see it as anti-fellowship but fellowship with all of humanity.
ali0sha 5y ago
> Joining together for a common purpose ... is political. What is that purpose, why is it common, and how does the joining work - these are the fundamental political problems. > If you put other things above your fellows and mission, you're a mercenary, not a fellow. Yes. At work, you are a mercenary. Your safety, family, health, concern for the decent treatment of your fellow humans, ought to come before your product. If the direction of the company you work for impinges on human decency, you shouldn't put that aside in favour of some weird 'fellowship' complex. > It promotes people to stick to their beliefs rather than put them aside. [...] It attracts those who have their own interest and want a platform for their own interests It's possible to have beliefs that aren't purely self-interested, an idea which seems so foreign to the author as to escape consideration entirely. It's possible to have beliefs that help you achieve your 'mission' in a way that's compatible with your values. If laying down your belief that racism is harmful and wrong is necessary for you 'mission', then the mission is itself harmful and wrong, and no amount of 'fellowship' is going to change that. This post is wrong. It's harmful. It's weird.
- cblang 5y ago
  A lot of the activists are docile lambs and corporate ladder climbers inside the companies. Their activism focuses on saying the right words and dis-empower Gen-X and older.
  - ali0sha 5y ago
    Is that how you characterise the activism at bandcamp, which said "maybe this racist list of 'funny names' is racist, and maybe we shouldn't do that?" Because, to write off 'how about not being racist' as "saying the right words and dis-empower Gen-X", or "[using] a platform for their own interests" is ... racist. And being anti-racist is political activism, and that's good.
- heinrichhartman 5y ago
  >> Joining together for a common purpose > ... is political. I think the author is referring to the mission statement of companies. While some missions statements have political elements, I can see plenty of mission statements that give a common purpose and are not political. Examples: "Accellerate the advent of sustainable transport" -- Tesla, "Build the best CPU" -- Intel (?). It is well known that a strong mission statement is an important motivation for people to join and continue to work at companies (e.g. Pink's Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose Framework). So to describe a company as a group of people who are joining together for a common purpose is not wrong. (Of course, there are of course many more factors that influence work-place selection and motivation.) Can you elaborate where you see this all rooted in politics?
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papito 5y ago
I talk to like-minded individuals at work all the time, but these are my friends, I know their views, I know what subjects I can safely bring up. I don't want some wokester accusing me of not being in on The Cause because I ditched a BLM All-Hands at lunch time. The problem is that in the current hyperactive cancel culture, seeking and destroying anyone who said an off-color joke on social media ten years ago, the workplace becomes a minefield, and it has enough complexities as it is. There is a reason why we don't talk about politics and religion in the office openly. We learned these lessons the hard way.
pavel_lishin 5y ago
> A fellowship is "a group of people that join together for a common purpose or interest". You're very explicitly not describing a job or a company here, as most of them exist today. For all the comparisons to the LoTR trilogy, almost none of us here are working on anything that impactful, or anything that important, and neither are our employers. Most of us are going to show up to work tomorrow and work on another endpoint in a CRUD app, not combat an existential threat. > If you put other things above your fellows and mission, you're a mercenary, not a fellow. Yeah, man - I am a mercenary. I joined my currently employer because they are paying me money in exchange for the services I provide them.
- 9dev 5y ago
  I can’t comprehend why someone would submit themselves so hard to the American corporate rhetoric. A workplace is neither a family, nor a fellowship. It should not be the center of your life, and certainly not something to fully submit yourself to. In that sense, I like the mercenary analogy very much.
  - spyckie2 5y ago
    Lifestyle business is where you want to be to have band of brothers or fellowship ideology and rhetoric. DHH has always been a proponent of lifestyle business. In the corporate world fellowship is rarely discussed and for good reason. I don’t believe most people are blinded by corporate rhetoric; some genuinely want to participate in missions and want to find others who think similarly.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      Certainly, but in the vast majority of cases where the company tells you you've joined a fellowship, that fellowship is very one-sided, and the company wants your loyalty while giving you none in return. That's what the GP is cautioning against, and that's overwhelmingly the rule today. If you do find a company that treats its employees like a family and cares about them enough to keep them employed during (the employee's) hardship, that's a valuable thing indeed.
jacknews 5y ago
I thought it was more a case of the orcs, who are supposed to serve the greater power Sauron, leaving, because they wanted everyone to stop calling their rations 'stinking man-flesh' and so-on, but were told to just 'get back to work, you filth'. LOL.
doctor_eval 5y ago
When Facebook bans Trump it’s a free speech issue. When basecamp bans political discussion it’s a… fellowship issue? Somebody please wake me up when this philosophical nightmare is over.
Ensorceled 5y ago
Strange analogy. The Fellowship, after banding together to fight the greatest evil of all time, disbanded a third of the way into the mission to allow the founders to continue the mission alone; while other members went off to overthrow a despot and a shadow ruler or hang out with Ents. Basecamp, meanwhile, is building good project management tools and privacy focused email ... for lots of money ... while saying don't even TALK about society evils such as deeply entrench racism. But, sure, let's call the activists "mercenaries".
CyberRabbi 5y ago
It’s pretty amazing that a list of funny names has become national news. There will always be some set of names that certain cultures (even hyper liberal woke ones) will consider funny. Pointing that out and poking fun doesn’t seem necessarily immoral. For the most part we can’t control what we consider funny. E.g. I’m sure most woke people who consider themselves allies in the struggle against oppression would consider a name like “Donald Drumpf” funny. That’s just a property of the specific values of that culture. Does it suck for guys named “Donald drumpf”? Sure, but punishing any specific individual for pointing out his name is funny does not negate the fact that the entire culture itself finds it funny. Better for drumpf to know than not know. He could always move or change his name. Less than ideal but wherever you go some name will be considered funny.
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73 points by spyckie2 5y ago

I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. This seems like a very narrow take on activism.

Veen 5y ago
Activism is necessarily divisive unless everyone already agrees on a political ideology and the solutions to issues activists focus on. If you are an activist, you might think this is a good thing—it may please you to create an environment hostile to people you don't agree with. But if you're trying to run a company, division is antithetical to your goals.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  If you run a company with problems so deep that people have to turn activist about them, maybe the division didn't start with activists.
  - Veen 5y ago
    That assumes the activists are in the right. You’ve chosen a side. Would you say “the division didn’t start with the activists” if it was conservative activists advocating for modest dress codes or similar? Your position assumes that progressive activists are correct, justified in bringing their politics to work, and that if they have a problem it’s the company’s fault. But you have to work with people you might disagree with, including conservatives, religious people, and so on. The point of keeping activism out of business is so that people with differing politics can work together. If you can't in good conscience do that, the honorable thing to do is resign, as happened at Basecamp.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      Activism for modest dress codes? I'll just excuse myself, here. That is a farce compared to the subject at hand.
      - disposekinetics 5y ago
        I believe you understand why someone would object to the above, but are not willing to universalize it.
        spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I am unwilling to universalize a principle I believe to have only a farcical connection to the one at hand. So you're partly correct about me.
        Veen 5y ago
        I understand you find it cognitively and rhetorically convenient to focus on an example rather than the point it’s exemplifying. But, if you’re capable of imagining alternative viewpoints, try swapping the example to one more to your taste to help you focus on the argument.
        spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I do not consider it valuable to try to reason about fuzzy matters using only edge cases. It's not a matter of ability, but of value.
        Veen 5y ago
        I agree it's a low value discussion, but I'm just fascinated that every comment you make exemplifies my point better than I did. The popularity of your style of interaction is precisely why policitcs should be kept out of the workplace.
- threeseed 5y ago
  > But if you're trying to run a company, division is antithetical to your goals Weird because at companies like Apple where I worked diversity in viewpoints was an important part of the fabric of the company. But then again they don't seem to be doing so well.
  - Veen 5y ago
    You know better than I what goes on in Apple, so I’m happy to hear they are committed to supporting and learning from employees with diverse political viewpoints beyond the usual California progressivism, including conservatism. It’s certainly not obvious that’s the case to an outsider. (If you’ll allow me an irrelevant aside, your snarky sarcasm, point missing, and cleverer-than-thou ironic posturing makes it difficult for me to take you seriously. But perhaps it’s considered polite where you’re from. I’m happy to learn.)
jpdus 5y ago
Came here to say the same. I disagree strongly with the premise of the article and think it has logical flaws. Aren't you more of a mercenary if you put personal believes and convictions aside, just to serve your employer as he wants, without asking questions or trying to do the right thing? Can a fellowship or ("a group of people that join together for a common purpose or interest") really form around an SaaS-/Adtech-/SocialMedia-Startup whose main goal is to make the founders rich?
sampo 5y ago
> I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. If you are doing activism, in the workplace, that runs against the beliefs and opinions of (some of the) the people you work with. How could this be anything but anti-fellowship?
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  I see that many assumptions are made about the value of fellowship and the effects of activism. And this is why I disagree with the premise -- I can't start with those assumptions.
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  Which beliefs and opinions? What if I'm arguing that our non-white employees are being passed over for promotions, and our women employees are all chronically underpaid compared to the men? How would that be more anti-fellowship than your fellows not being paid equitably?
  - scaryclam 5y ago
    What if you're arguing that women should stay at home, or that climate change is fake, or immigrants are a blight on society? It works both ways I'm afraid. And many people will think that those opinions are somehow good for society and that they're being good team players by pushing them.
    - pavel_lishin 5y ago
      It does not work both ways when the things I'm arguing for are directly impacting my fellow coworkers, and are the results of direct decisions by the higher ups. It's not a question of society at that point, it's a question of what's good for the company. OP loves his fellowship analogy, but you can't have a fellowship where the halflings are only getting half-rations and Gandalf refuses to let the Dwarves participate in half of their endeavours.

seibelj 5y ago

Another problem with politics-in-the-workplace is it seems like there is only one accepted political dogma. If people were constantly blasted in the face with my politics they would be very annoyed. But I’m supposed to accept their politics unquestionably. Totally agree with this article - just do your job and get on the soap box during your own time.

blowski 5y ago
Your comment begs the question: what is politics? Discouraging people from voting for Trump? Pushing for equal pay across genders? Believing the business should do more to diversify its hiring? Pushing for transgender bathrooms? Being opposed to working on defense contracts? For some people, these conversations are “obvious facts”, not politics.
- xupybd 5y ago
  All of the above are highly political. There are people who feel very strongly on either side of those positions.
- bonoboTP 5y ago
  What is religion? For some people the Ten Commandments and the need to follow the Lord Jesus Christ are facts. It's the very creator of the universe ordering things! Or the laws in the Quran are undisputed truths for some, not some wishy-washy matter of debate. How did we ever manage to get past that? A lot of tribal, identity-based politics is much like religion in this way. For the believers it's simply truth. For outsiders it's just one faith out of many that you should keep private in a secular society.
- howfrontoage 5y ago
  Too much politics is the stuff that gets one fired. After a few iterations the calibration might be reached.
hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
What is "politics"? Where do you draw the line? "I'm going to pick up my kid at school this afternoon, because otherwise he has to spend over an hour on the bus. It would be nice if they had more school buses so kids wouldn't have to deal with such long bus rides." "Excuse me, Becky, but you cannot be discussing local politics in the workplace. That's a fireable offense, you know."

aspaceman 5y ago

Why is that every, single article that gets posted on this subject at HN completely ignores the “funny names” list that actually caused this incident. Folks keep acting like it was kids screaming BLM on the company message board and it’s kind of infuriatingly disingenuous. It feels almost purposeful that folks are ignoring the specific political grievance that employees had, and they are framing it as activist pressure. I’m genuinely impressed at Basecamps ability to completely control the conversation, and I’m incredibly annoyed that articles posted here about it have completely ignored this argument. It was a specific political act that upset employees - they didn’t “want to just post activism all day instead of working.” That argument is so manufactured it’s painful, and I’m dissapointed a bunch of educated professionals can’t see the manipulation at play. “I just want to work at work. I don’t need activism in my workplace.” is an opinion entirely tangential to the actual events. But it’s what people hear want to talk about I guess. It’s good business sense for an internal team to say “You shouldn’t have a funny names list. If that got out it’d be PR hell for the company. It’s bad business and not related to work.” That’s how these complaints should have been taken.

xupybd 5y ago
Do you have any links to the incident for the uninitiated?
- ryanbrunner 5y ago
  This is a good overview: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406673/basecamp-political-speech-policy-controversy https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406673/basecamp-politic... For DHH's response: https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e
StavrosK 5y ago
This is probably less about Basecamp and more about the "straw that broke the camel's back" of people being tired of activists being so loud. Semi-unrelatedly, I noticed something interesting: People who try to solve problem X seem to dislike other people who try to solve the same problem in a slightly different way almost as much as they dislike the people who cause X in the first place. I find myself being put off similarly, and it's completely irrational that I'd be put off that someone is against racism as much as I am, but has a different idea of what a solution might look like. Being aware of that is probably a good step towards fixing it, so I wanted to mention it here.

tobr 5y ago

If you examine any two values that you believe in close enough, you can find a place where they rub against each other. That friction doesn’t mean one is “anti” the other, just that you sometimes need to find a way to compromise. A claim that pro-activism is anti-fellowship is only true if you are dogmatic and uncompromising about putting your fellowship first. Such a fellowship is otherwise known as a ‘cult’.

WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
And activism is when you're pushing a competing cult.
- ali0sha 5y ago
  Let's be clear, the 'activism' in question (at basecamp) is anti-racism. And if anti-racism is a competing cult, then you might want to switch sides.
  - camelite 5y ago
    Being unable to countenance good faith disagreement is not a persuasive argument against your ideology being a cult. As an alternative approach, you can cut the gordian knot of being against anti-racism without being in favor of racism by simply noting that the thing is not what it calls itself.
  - username90 5y ago
    Self proclaimed anti racists are often pro racism which leads to problems in workplaces where you have to work with a diverse set of individuals.

ryanbrunner 5y ago

Obviously, we can't know the exact particulars of how every argument went down at Basecamp, and we have to intuit an awful lot from fairly limited blog posts by Jason, DHH, and tweets from (mostly ex)-employees. But it feels like there's a pretty clear pattern that this wasn't a case of a few politically motivated employees being a distraction and disrupting an otherwise harmonious environment. A third of the company joined the DEI initiative that was disbanded. On twitter, anonymous interviews, and any other source that I've seen, not one Basecamper has come out in support of Jason and David, and employees seem universally aligned against their actions. If anything, I'd say the likeliest source of "anti-fellowship" here is Jason and DHH. They are in charge, so they are able to do that, but "fellowship" isn't a good term to describe getting in line behind the bosses' decisions regardless of your personal opinion.

jacob2484 5y ago
"On twitter, anonymous interviews, and any other source that I've seen, not one Basecamper has come out in support of Jason and David, and employees seem universally aligned against their actions." Why would they in this cancel culture poison of today - so they can be vilified for not agreeing with some extreme leftist position? More than likely there's a silent majority that DOES align with their action, and that should be OK.
- ryanbrunner 5y ago
  I can't help but feel that you've already decided your stance on this, and evidence is sort of irrelevant. 19 people resigned, and 20+ people thought that this was an important issue based on their participation in the DEI committee. 2 people are advocating on the other side. Why would the default assumption be that the remaining ~35 people side with Jason and DHH on this matter?
fpig 5y ago
I mean, reading this: https://janeyang.org/2021/04/27/an-open-letter-to-jason-and-david/ https://janeyang.org/2021/04/27/an-open-letter-to-jason-and-... It does seem like it may have been a case of some politically motivated employees being disruptive. The part that is just irredeemable is: > I thought about it through COVID-19, as HEY launched in the midst of a civil rights uprising and we toiled over the customer support cases of people who could afford to pay $99/year for personal email. This sounds like the person is complaining that their supposedly privileged customers distracted her from activism. If she has a problem working for "people who could afford to pay $99/year for personal email" then she should probably find a different job where she will serve a demographic that is more palatable to her.

bantunes 5y ago

I understand both sides of this conversation. And can't help but think that politics crossing over to the workplace (where we spend a big chunk of our time) is overall good, since democracy hasn't really taken hold at the office in general. For how much longer can we expect people to demand society to be progressive and equal at large and still cope with these small quasi-feudal (at worst) fiefdoms we spend 8+ hours a day in? Still, Twitter and social media in general have not prepared us to have these discussions at all, and I expect that for this notion to thrive, whole new businesses based on activism and equality and work to have to be created. More Mondragóns, fewer Coinbases. A difference here is workplace activism and not persecution of thoughtcrime, MAGA followers and so on. Except when they believe in Jewish space lasers, of course.

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WesolyKubeczek 5y ago

I disagree that activism makes you a "mercenary". If anything, I think of myself at work as a mercenary who is good to his word, and does what he's fucking paid to do, without bringing his personal beliefs into it. If it grates on my conscience, I don't take the contract in the first place. It's a professional thing to do, dammit. Activism at the workplace is as far as one can get from either fellowship or a mercenary camp: it's your personal beliefs and values above all else, at all cost. Screw the work, screw the colleagues, screw the company, I need to preach on the company dime, or improve stuff no one has asked me to improve.

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peter_retief 5y ago

It is also very boring for those of us who have no interest in other peoples outrage.

hugoromano 5y ago

Some years ago I had manager that replied to a staff member ”you are paid to work, not to think or speak”. Yep, the company went bust. People need to be cared for, if they want to talk about Pluto and politics, let them and listen. This all goes back to a passive vs active operations. The pandemic created too much active work, online meetings.

randompwd 5y ago
Some years ago I had manager that replied to a staff member ”you are paid to work, not to think or speak”. Yep, the company went on to become a billion dollar mega-success and everyone lived happily ever after. These conclusion forming anecdotes in the small from a single moment in time between don't provide a strong base for causal arguments.

dools 5y ago

Spoken like a true racist

clearcarbon 5y ago

Work is political - saying that people should get on with work without discussing "political topics" prevents them from discussing and solving the issues within their own work. Yes there is a need to make sure work that directly brings money into the organisation gets done but part of that work is making sure everyone everyone works equally. "There's no way the ring is getting to Mordor if Gimli is pushing for elf reparations." This suggests we can't deal with more than one thing at once. We can deal with the big bad of our generation (I would argue climate change), while also improving the material condition of disadvantaged people across society.

scruffyherder 5y ago
How do I inject this into my SQL?
HKH2 5y ago
In which company does everyone work equally?
drukenemo 5y ago
It depends on what you refer as political. Saying a certain president is crap and making an open invitation to a protest against him or her is not the same as discussing your views on things that directly affect your work performance.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  Both are overtly political.
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cblang 5y ago
> improving the material condition of disadvantaged people across society. The average modern activist in software organizations is well educated, underperforming in terms of actual code contributions and a master at forming committees, work groups and assuming power. This activist fights for keeping his/her own job while others are doing the work. Classic leftist/pro-worker policies have been extinct since at least the 1990s.

threeseed 5y ago

It would have been nice to see a nuanced, thoughtful, insightful look at the various viewpoints that exist within this complex issue. Because many parts of this "activism" are important e.g. how women are treated in IT or what values does a company need to defend in this modern age. Instead we get an utterly cringeworthy "everyone should just be quiet and follow the wisdom of Lord of the Rings" which adds absolutely nothing to the discourse. Flagged.

mellosouls 5y ago
The analogy is unfortunately nerdy, but flagging it is over the top. That sort of behaviour plays into the hands of those who believe that criticism of social activists is shut down by sympathisers rather than countered with civil argument.
- threeseed 5y ago
  This is a low-information, immature piece of work that adds absolutely nothing constructive. It does not deserve to be amplified by HN.
- Lazare 5y ago
  I disagree. I do disagree with Basecamp's policy, but I certainly wouldn't flag someone for arguing in favour of it. But I'm not sure I'd consider the linked post an argument in favour of it either; that implies that it contained an argument, but this seemed to just be a vague hand wave at popular culture, following by a bare assertion. Okay, how about "the Rebels were good, and the Empire was bad; the Rebels were a group organised for a common purpose, and so is a labour union, so the Rebels are like a union, so you should join your local union, because otherwise Palpatine will win"? Is that all we need? One reason I wouldn't flag an argument I disagreed with is because the comments would be an excellent place to see people discussing, refuting, or affirming the points being made. But with something like this...what's to discuss? Or refute? The entire post would make at least as much sense (which is to say, not much) if you just flipped the conclusion and left the body alone. ("Fellowship means looking after everyone and not sacrificing people for the greater good, mercenaries just go to work, do their job, and go home without caring about right and wrong or thinking what the job is, etc.")

faichai 5y ago

I’ve never really experienced activism per-se in the workplace. Master/slave in the code base was raised as an issue but that’s about it! I have, however, worked in an organisation that transitioned from a clear fellowship of everyone working towards a common goal and putting their other concerns on hold to one where you felt your interests were competing. I ultimately left because of this transition (life is too short!), and it’s interesting that it was the introduction of self-interested, mercenary sales guys and a commercially oriented CEO that triggered it. I like fellowship/mercenary dichotomy.

thom 5y ago

Some forms of fellowship are more important than others.

fredgrott 5y ago

you know when the women's movement started in the USA centered around both prohibition and union protection against black lung disease they did not see it as anti-fellowship but fellowship with all of humanity.

ali0sha 5y ago

> Joining together for a common purpose ... is political. What is that purpose, why is it common, and how does the joining work - these are the fundamental political problems. > If you put other things above your fellows and mission, you're a mercenary, not a fellow. Yes. At work, you are a mercenary. Your safety, family, health, concern for the decent treatment of your fellow humans, ought to come before your product. If the direction of the company you work for impinges on human decency, you shouldn't put that aside in favour of some weird 'fellowship' complex. > It promotes people to stick to their beliefs rather than put them aside. [...] It attracts those who have their own interest and want a platform for their own interests It's possible to have beliefs that aren't purely self-interested, an idea which seems so foreign to the author as to escape consideration entirely. It's possible to have beliefs that help you achieve your 'mission' in a way that's compatible with your values. If laying down your belief that racism is harmful and wrong is necessary for you 'mission', then the mission is itself harmful and wrong, and no amount of 'fellowship' is going to change that. This post is wrong. It's harmful. It's weird.

cblang 5y ago
A lot of the activists are docile lambs and corporate ladder climbers inside the companies. Their activism focuses on saying the right words and dis-empower Gen-X and older.
- ali0sha 5y ago
  Is that how you characterise the activism at bandcamp, which said "maybe this racist list of 'funny names' is racist, and maybe we shouldn't do that?" Because, to write off 'how about not being racist' as "saying the right words and dis-empower Gen-X", or "[using] a platform for their own interests" is ... racist. And being anti-racist is political activism, and that's good.
heinrichhartman 5y ago
>> Joining together for a common purpose > ... is political. I think the author is referring to the mission statement of companies. While some missions statements have political elements, I can see plenty of mission statements that give a common purpose and are not political. Examples: "Accellerate the advent of sustainable transport" -- Tesla, "Build the best CPU" -- Intel (?). It is well known that a strong mission statement is an important motivation for people to join and continue to work at companies (e.g. Pink's Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose Framework). So to describe a company as a group of people who are joining together for a common purpose is not wrong. (Of course, there are of course many more factors that influence work-place selection and motivation.) Can you elaborate where you see this all rooted in politics?

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papito 5y ago

I talk to like-minded individuals at work all the time, but these are my friends, I know their views, I know what subjects I can safely bring up. I don't want some wokester accusing me of not being in on The Cause because I ditched a BLM All-Hands at lunch time. The problem is that in the current hyperactive cancel culture, seeking and destroying anyone who said an off-color joke on social media ten years ago, the workplace becomes a minefield, and it has enough complexities as it is. There is a reason why we don't talk about politics and religion in the office openly. We learned these lessons the hard way.

pavel_lishin 5y ago

> A fellowship is "a group of people that join together for a common purpose or interest". You're very explicitly not describing a job or a company here, as most of them exist today. For all the comparisons to the LoTR trilogy, almost none of us here are working on anything that impactful, or anything that important, and neither are our employers. Most of us are going to show up to work tomorrow and work on another endpoint in a CRUD app, not combat an existential threat. > If you put other things above your fellows and mission, you're a mercenary, not a fellow. Yeah, man - I am a mercenary. I joined my currently employer because they are paying me money in exchange for the services I provide them.

9dev 5y ago
I can’t comprehend why someone would submit themselves so hard to the American corporate rhetoric. A workplace is neither a family, nor a fellowship. It should not be the center of your life, and certainly not something to fully submit yourself to. In that sense, I like the mercenary analogy very much.
- spyckie2 5y ago
  Lifestyle business is where you want to be to have band of brothers or fellowship ideology and rhetoric. DHH has always been a proponent of lifestyle business. In the corporate world fellowship is rarely discussed and for good reason. I don’t believe most people are blinded by corporate rhetoric; some genuinely want to participate in missions and want to find others who think similarly.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    Certainly, but in the vast majority of cases where the company tells you you've joined a fellowship, that fellowship is very one-sided, and the company wants your loyalty while giving you none in return. That's what the GP is cautioning against, and that's overwhelmingly the rule today. If you do find a company that treats its employees like a family and cares about them enough to keep them employed during (the employee's) hardship, that's a valuable thing indeed.

jacknews 5y ago

I thought it was more a case of the orcs, who are supposed to serve the greater power Sauron, leaving, because they wanted everyone to stop calling their rations 'stinking man-flesh' and so-on, but were told to just 'get back to work, you filth'. LOL.

doctor_eval 5y ago

When Facebook bans Trump it’s a free speech issue. When basecamp bans political discussion it’s a… fellowship issue? Somebody please wake me up when this philosophical nightmare is over.

Ensorceled 5y ago

Strange analogy. The Fellowship, after banding together to fight the greatest evil of all time, disbanded a third of the way into the mission to allow the founders to continue the mission alone; while other members went off to overthrow a despot and a shadow ruler or hang out with Ents. Basecamp, meanwhile, is building good project management tools and privacy focused email ... for lots of money ... while saying don't even TALK about society evils such as deeply entrench racism. But, sure, let's call the activists "mercenaries".

CyberRabbi 5y ago

It’s pretty amazing that a list of funny names has become national news. There will always be some set of names that certain cultures (even hyper liberal woke ones) will consider funny. Pointing that out and poking fun doesn’t seem necessarily immoral. For the most part we can’t control what we consider funny. E.g. I’m sure most woke people who consider themselves allies in the struggle against oppression would consider a name like “Donald Drumpf” funny. That’s just a property of the specific values of that culture. Does it suck for guys named “Donald drumpf”? Sure, but punishing any specific individual for pointing out his name is funny does not negate the fact that the entire culture itself finds it funny. Better for drumpf to know than not know. He could always move or change his name. Less than ideal but wherever you go some name will be considered funny.

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