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> 4. Data oriented way of programming has its own set of problems. This should be a top reason. Author is too shy to reveal the true cause.

by bvrmn 5y ago

bsdubernerd 5y ago
Data-oriented programming is not hard by itself, rather as a consequence of how programming is done and what sort of flexibility you get in return. The traditional (or should I call "inverse") approach is to define what the program should do and make it modular enough so that parts can be changed easily. For this to work well, functions are given a state snapshot to read/operator or change. Encapsulating this state into a struct/object allows functions operating on the same data to be extended easily, without having to think which functions do what, when and where they're called. Thinking about locality though does force you to think not only about program structure, but overall program flow, which can be much, much harder to implement in a flexible fashion. Struct-of-arrays or arrays-or-structs has little to do with it, although it's a common pattern seen when working with some kind of highly structured datasets. Look at high-performance graphics pipelines to see how this affects the structure of the code. There's a lot of duplication which is required to handle data which is structured in a different way for efficiency, something which is not solved by just SOA/AOS swapping, but requires thinking of what data is used, what are the access patterns of the algorithm and how to pack the data so that locality is optimized. It's also harder to change as a consequence.
- bvrmn 5y ago
  I have experience with performant cache-friendly code. Yes, data oriented approach can be useful in some fields. But author blames the whole industry having low demand of performant code and wants python to accommodate cache-friendliness. This is a high level BS.
typon 5y ago
Data oriented programming isn't a framework or paradigm. It's simply a principle that says that programs should be written to solve particular problems on particular hardware. If objects serve a purpose to this end, then they are also data oriented programming.

> 4. Data oriented way of programming has its own set of problems. This should be a top reason. Author is too shy to reveal the true cause.

by bvrmn 5y ago

> 4. Data oriented way of programming has its own set of problems. This should be a top reason. Author is too shy to reveal the true cause.

bsdubernerd 5y ago

Data-oriented programming is not hard by itself, rather as a consequence of how programming is done and what sort of flexibility you get in return. The traditional (or should I call "inverse") approach is to define what the program should do and make it modular enough so that parts can be changed easily. For this to work well, functions are given a state snapshot to read/operator or change. Encapsulating this state into a struct/object allows functions operating on the same data to be extended easily, without having to think which functions do what, when and where they're called. Thinking about locality though does force you to think not only about program structure, but overall program flow, which can be much, much harder to implement in a flexible fashion. Struct-of-arrays or arrays-or-structs has little to do with it, although it's a common pattern seen when working with some kind of highly structured datasets. Look at high-performance graphics pipelines to see how this affects the structure of the code. There's a lot of duplication which is required to handle data which is structured in a different way for efficiency, something which is not solved by just SOA/AOS swapping, but requires thinking of what data is used, what are the access patterns of the algorithm and how to pack the data so that locality is optimized. It's also harder to change as a consequence.

bvrmn 5y ago
I have experience with performant cache-friendly code. Yes, data oriented approach can be useful in some fields. But author blames the whole industry having low demand of performant code and wants python to accommodate cache-friendliness. This is a high level BS.

typon 5y ago

Data oriented programming isn't a framework or paradigm. It's simply a principle that says that programs should be written to solve particular problems on particular hardware. If objects serve a purpose to this end, then they are also data oriented programming.