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The great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath have very rudimentary understanding of the intricacies of jewish law involving sabbath. Edit - it's the tr

The great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath have very rudimentary understanding of the intricacies of jewish law involving sabbath. Edit - it's the truth down vote if you can't respond with an intelligent argument. When discussing the details of a physics problem and not involving the people who have studied that field the most you are unlikely to get an informed answer. 'but we have other scientists" you say - well they'd talk to the physicists.

tguvot 6y ago
A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel (and in many cases they were raised in religious families). Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  >A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel this doesn't mean anything. most people in israel are secular, very secular. >(and in many cases they were raised in religious families) this is a different demographic you're trying to pretend is somehow as numerous as the first group you describe, 'living in israel'. They're a tiny minority of the population. >Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. You're actually talking to a israeli not living in israel any longer who grew up in a religious family. I can tell you firsthand that my brother, who spends hours every day studying gemarah, has a million times more knowledge than me about it. Your suggestion that you 'get exposed to different aspects' makes someone an expert or even informed is false. IT's like 'getting exposed' to physics you never studies because you live in a place where other people study physics - the people studying physics are the experts not their neighbour. >Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation. First, not even as good an understanding as normal orthodox (no need to jump to ultra), or even a someone who is very deeply Conservative. Just because you can't take a bus on a saturday doesn't mean you know the ins and outs of why. Second - that was the whole criticism - that HN discussion of it was very uninformed and specifically because all the experts wouldnt be on while its shabbat, so you're kind of repeating his point there.
  - tguvot 6y ago
    You're actually talking to israeli not living in Israel. Yes, most people in Israel are secular or very secular. And a part of reason for it been so, it's the attitude that you exhibit here: if you are not orthodox (or at least not very deeply Conservative) you are not jew (enough). And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      >And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. It's very surface level and not sufficient for a discussion on the technicalities of a religion. It's exactly taking the word of non-experts because they live beside experts - it doesn't give them more than passing surface level knowledge of the things they experience directly. >Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough. Again, the whole criticism was that the discussion occurred exactly when the experts were somewhere else, and that the level of discussion was not 'sufficient enough' - so what you have isn't a point of fact, but a point of an opinion that you think it's 'enough' that the person who raise the point disagrees with. And I agree with them - a discussion on the technicalities of shabbat missing all the people who care enough about shabbat to not be on here is exactly the way to make sure you only have surface level and often entirely wrong discussion. You think it's 'sufficient enough' doesn't make that true - it just means you're not interested in details from the actual experts on the topic. Thats a personal choice you make, but it's only your value judgement as to how much detail you want in the conversation, not a reflection of reality. I'd say his criticism still stands and your reply to it exactly highlights the criticism as correct.
      - tguvot 6y ago

tguvot 6y ago

A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel (and in many cases they were raised in religious families). Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation.

LegitShady 6y ago
>A good chunk of great majority of jews who don't observe sabbath actually live in Israel this doesn't mean anything. most people in israel are secular, very secular. >(and in many cases they were raised in religious families) this is a different demographic you're trying to pretend is somehow as numerous as the first group you describe, 'living in israel'. They're a tiny minority of the population. >Over there you get exposed to different aspects of jewish law involving sabbath (or other parts of life) whether you like it or not and get rather familiar with it. You're actually talking to a israeli not living in israel any longer who grew up in a religious family. I can tell you firsthand that my brother, who spends hours every day studying gemarah, has a million times more knowledge than me about it. Your suggestion that you 'get exposed to different aspects' makes someone an expert or even informed is false. IT's like 'getting exposed' to physics you never studies because you live in a place where other people study physics - the people studying physics are the experts not their neighbour. >Yea, probably not as in depth understanding as ultra-orthodox, but more than enough to been able to keep up in HN conversation. First, not even as good an understanding as normal orthodox (no need to jump to ultra), or even a someone who is very deeply Conservative. Just because you can't take a bus on a saturday doesn't mean you know the ins and outs of why. Second - that was the whole criticism - that HN discussion of it was very uninformed and specifically because all the experts wouldnt be on while its shabbat, so you're kind of repeating his point there.
- tguvot 6y ago
  You're actually talking to israeli not living in Israel. Yes, most people in Israel are secular or very secular. And a part of reason for it been so, it's the attitude that you exhibit here: if you are not orthodox (or at least not very deeply Conservative) you are not jew (enough). And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    >And living in Israel exposes you to enough aspects of religion to know "why I can't just press a button in order to get to floor that I want right now". Or why a bunch of guys in black hats stone McDonald windows or a bunch of girls who got by accident into religious neighberhood. It's very surface level and not sufficient for a discussion on the technicalities of a religion. It's exactly taking the word of non-experts because they live beside experts - it doesn't give them more than passing surface level knowledge of the things they experience directly. >Maybe not deep aspects enough, as your brother who studying gamarah, but sufficient enough. Again, the whole criticism was that the discussion occurred exactly when the experts were somewhere else, and that the level of discussion was not 'sufficient enough' - so what you have isn't a point of fact, but a point of an opinion that you think it's 'enough' that the person who raise the point disagrees with. And I agree with them - a discussion on the technicalities of shabbat missing all the people who care enough about shabbat to not be on here is exactly the way to make sure you only have surface level and often entirely wrong discussion. You think it's 'sufficient enough' doesn't make that true - it just means you're not interested in details from the actual experts on the topic. Thats a personal choice you make, but it's only your value judgement as to how much detail you want in the conversation, not a reflection of reality. I'd say his criticism still stands and your reply to it exactly highlights the criticism as correct.
    - tguvot 6y ago