3 ms·

Can you not just use an NFC tag to choose your floor, or call the elevator? No button pressing required, just stand near the door with your keys in your pocket.

gnicholas 5y ago
This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.
- hawaiianbrah 5y ago
  That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I wonder why having a Shabbos goy is permitted, while having a device to perform the same task is not. Maybe someone could start a company who hired remote shabbos goys that observed signals from motion sensors and controlled lights in response to them.
    - jsmith99 5y ago
      A shabbos goy is permitted because God did not command non Jews to rest on shabbos, only Jews. (Jews believe that God is God of all, and all will go to heaven if righteous, but the special laws described in the Bible apply only to Jews). There is a rabbinical prohibition against directly asking a non jew to do something for you on shabbos except in case of great need or when you can arrange that the non jew will benefit from the action too.
    - emosenkis 5y ago
      1. Contexts in which a Shabbos goy is a permitted solution are quite restricted - it's not a "get out of Shabbos free" card. 2. A Shabbos goy, being human, has agency, while a device does not have agency, leaving the person using the device with responsibility for making the device do something. Such a company is not entirely unimaginable given sufficiently roundabout sensing mechanisms. It could be especially useful in Israel due to the majority of the population being Jewish and with many neighborhoods and towns nearing 100% Jewish residents. Mostly, though, religious Jews in Israel are just used to not having a Shabbos goy as an option. That said, the one time I found myself really stuck in a bind where a Shabbos goy was the only reasonable solution, I was fortunate enough to see a non-Jewish taxi driver pull over within minutes of going outside to look for one.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    A motion sensor seems to be doing something somewhat different. When there is no motion, no circuit is completed, and the connected appliance (e.g., a light) is off. Contrast that with a device that constantly scans for faces and is continuously sending instructions to the elevator controller. In this case, it is always sending an instruction about which floor to go to. If no one is present (and nothing is happening on other floors), the instruction is to stay on the current floor, doors open. If someone approaches and is not recognized, then on the Sabbath the instruction would be to go floor by floor. And if someone approaches and is recognized, the instruction would be to go to that person's floor. In any of the three cases, instructions are being sent via continuously-active circuitry. This is different from the motion sensor, where a circuit is completed only when someone is present and triggers it. But like I said, I know little of this subject, and I'm sure these ideas have been vigorously debated by experts!
tovmeod 5y ago
I believe a NFC tag would be muktse, so you shouldn't even be carrying it at all, eruv or no eruv. (muktse are things you can't move/carry/handle on shabat) Anyway I think activating something with it would be the same as activating a motion sensor, which is prohibited.

gnicholas 5y ago

This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.

hawaiianbrah 5y ago
That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I wonder why having a Shabbos goy is permitted, while having a device to perform the same task is not. Maybe someone could start a company who hired remote shabbos goys that observed signals from motion sensors and controlled lights in response to them.
  - jsmith99 5y ago
    A shabbos goy is permitted because God did not command non Jews to rest on shabbos, only Jews. (Jews believe that God is God of all, and all will go to heaven if righteous, but the special laws described in the Bible apply only to Jews). There is a rabbinical prohibition against directly asking a non jew to do something for you on shabbos except in case of great need or when you can arrange that the non jew will benefit from the action too.
  - emosenkis 5y ago
    1. Contexts in which a Shabbos goy is a permitted solution are quite restricted - it's not a "get out of Shabbos free" card. 2. A Shabbos goy, being human, has agency, while a device does not have agency, leaving the person using the device with responsibility for making the device do something. Such a company is not entirely unimaginable given sufficiently roundabout sensing mechanisms. It could be especially useful in Israel due to the majority of the population being Jewish and with many neighborhoods and towns nearing 100% Jewish residents. Mostly, though, religious Jews in Israel are just used to not having a Shabbos goy as an option. That said, the one time I found myself really stuck in a bind where a Shabbos goy was the only reasonable solution, I was fortunate enough to see a non-Jewish taxi driver pull over within minutes of going outside to look for one.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  A motion sensor seems to be doing something somewhat different. When there is no motion, no circuit is completed, and the connected appliance (e.g., a light) is off. Contrast that with a device that constantly scans for faces and is continuously sending instructions to the elevator controller. In this case, it is always sending an instruction about which floor to go to. If no one is present (and nothing is happening on other floors), the instruction is to stay on the current floor, doors open. If someone approaches and is not recognized, then on the Sabbath the instruction would be to go floor by floor. And if someone approaches and is recognized, the instruction would be to go to that person's floor. In any of the three cases, instructions are being sent via continuously-active circuitry. This is different from the motion sensor, where a circuit is completed only when someone is present and triggers it. But like I said, I know little of this subject, and I'm sure these ideas have been vigorously debated by experts!

tovmeod 5y ago

I believe a NFC tag would be muktse, so you shouldn't even be carrying it at all, eruv or no eruv. (muktse are things you can't move/carry/handle on shabat) Anyway I think activating something with it would be the same as activating a motion sensor, which is prohibited.