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I am an orthodox Jew who lives in an apartment building with a Sabbath elevator. I usually takes the stairs on the Sabbath, but use the elevator occasionally. W

by _hijk 5y ago

I am an orthodox Jew who lives in an apartment building with a Sabbath elevator. I usually takes the stairs on the Sabbath, but use the elevator occasionally. While in it, I always contemplate other possible strategies the elevator could use to speed up the runtime. All Sabbath elevators I've seen follow the route `1,2,3,...,N,1,2,...` which can take up to `2N - 1` steps (open/close cycles) in the worst case (you just miss the elevator on the ground floor and are going up to `N`). What if they went `1,2,4,6,...,N,1,3,5,7,...,N`? Worst case is still `2N -1` but if you relax the goal to only care about getting within one floor of your target (go one away from your floor and take the stairs for the last flight) worst case drops to `N`. (Each step would take a little longer due to having to travel 2 flights, but most of the time is spent waiting for the doors anyways.) Has anyone seen a Sabbath elevator that doesn't follow the standard route?

riskneutral 5y ago
Can you not just use an NFC tag to choose your floor, or call the elevator? No button pressing required, just stand near the door with your keys in your pocket.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.
  - hawaiianbrah 5y ago
    That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      I wonder why having a Shabbos goy is permitted, while having a device to perform the same task is not. Maybe someone could start a company who hired remote shabbos goys that observed signals from motion sensors and controlled lights in response to them.
      - jsmith99 5y ago
        A shabbos goy is permitted because God did not command non Jews to rest on shabbos, only Jews. (Jews believe that God is God of all, and all will go to heaven if righteous, but the special laws described in the Bible apply only to Jews). There is a rabbinical prohibition against directly asking a non jew to do something for you on shabbos except in case of great need or when you can arrange that the non jew will benefit from the action too.
      - emosenkis 5y ago
        1. Contexts in which a Shabbos goy is a permitted solution are quite restricted - it's not a "get out of Shabbos free" card. 2. A Shabbos goy, being human, has agency, while a device does not have agency, leaving the person using the device with responsibility for making the device do something. Such a company is not entirely unimaginable given sufficiently roundabout sensing mechanisms. It could be especially useful in Israel due to the majority of the population being Jewish and with many neighborhoods and towns nearing 100% Jewish residents. Mostly, though, religious Jews in Israel are just used to not having a Shabbos goy as an option. That said, the one time I found myself really stuck in a bind where a Shabbos goy was the only reasonable solution, I was fortunate enough to see a non-Jewish taxi driver pull over within minutes of going outside to look for one.
    - gnicholas 5y ago
      A motion sensor seems to be doing something somewhat different. When there is no motion, no circuit is completed, and the connected appliance (e.g., a light) is off. Contrast that with a device that constantly scans for faces and is continuously sending instructions to the elevator controller. In this case, it is always sending an instruction about which floor to go to. If no one is present (and nothing is happening on other floors), the instruction is to stay on the current floor, doors open. If someone approaches and is not recognized, then on the Sabbath the instruction would be to go floor by floor. And if someone approaches and is recognized, the instruction would be to go to that person's floor. In any of the three cases, instructions are being sent via continuously-active circuitry. This is different from the motion sensor, where a circuit is completed only when someone is present and triggers it. But like I said, I know little of this subject, and I'm sure these ideas have been vigorously debated by experts!
- tovmeod 5y ago
  I believe a NFC tag would be muktse, so you shouldn't even be carrying it at all, eruv or no eruv. (muktse are things you can't move/carry/handle on shabat) Anyway I think activating something with it would be the same as activating a motion sensor, which is prohibited.
js4ever 5y ago
Indeed people that can will take the stairs, but think about old peoples or people that can't use stairs because of invalidity or temporary invalidity. For them the regular Shabbat mode is the only option. In some buildings the Shabbat mode is activated only at some hours and not for all Shabbat to save energy.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > but think about old peoples or people that can't use stairs because of invalidity or temporary invalidity Do you know, that in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods (in Israel) they don't call an ambulance to a dying relative or to a minor with serious injury and in pain (with both shoulders dislocated, for example) until the end of Shabbat?
  - tovmeod 5y ago
    don't make stuff up, that does not even make sense. of course one can and should desecrate shabat to save a life
    - helge9210 5y ago
      I'm not making things up. My colleague was working as paramedic in those neighborhoods. By the end of the Shabbat doctor takes a pen and and a bunch of death certificates for people whose relatives won't use the phone during Shabbat. For the evening this is his only job.
      - sam_goody 5y ago
        You _are_ making it up. I have many family members who are in the medical profession in Israel. I have been behind the desk on Shabbat in Shaarei Tzedek Hospital (the "Haredi" hospital) that accepts incoming patients. There is not a single group of Jews that thinks it is admirable to risk a life for Shabbat. The more the religious, the more they value life and quicker break Shabbat. Do a bit of research in Hatzoloh and Joint Hatzoloh - it is impressive the lengths that volunteers go to, to save a life in Israel (Jewish and Muslim equally). They are active everywhere, and do not get fewer calls from the ultra-Orthodox.
dTal 5y ago
>While in it, I always contemplate other possible strategies the elevator could use to speed up the runtime Now, should you really be doing that on the Sabbath? What if you actually succeeded in coming up with a really clever algorithm? Would that not have been work? (And if not - what if you later discover that the elevator company has offered a bounty for exactly such a solution, and you proudly email it in and get your 50 bucks and free t-shirt. Is it now, retroactively, work?)
- hawaiianbrah 5y ago
  > What if you actually succeeded in coming up with a really clever algorithm? Would that not have been work? Actually implementing it would of course break Shabbat, but pondering it is fine.

by _hijk 5y ago

riskneutral 5y ago

Can you not just use an NFC tag to choose your floor, or call the elevator? No button pressing required, just stand near the door with your keys in your pocket.

gnicholas 5y ago
This is an interesting question. It involves carrying a tracker and using it to trigger a sensor. I don't know much about how these rules are interpreted, but that seems like it could run afoul of them. A closer case would be if there were an elevator that had a camera that recognized every person who approached it who lived in the building, and which took them to the floor they live on.
- hawaiianbrah 5y ago
  That _is_ an interesting question. If there is an eruv, carrying is fine. Motion sensors are _not_ kosher as I understand it, so I think this idea wouldn’t fly either.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    I wonder why having a Shabbos goy is permitted, while having a device to perform the same task is not. Maybe someone could start a company who hired remote shabbos goys that observed signals from motion sensors and controlled lights in response to them.
    - jsmith99 5y ago
      A shabbos goy is permitted because God did not command non Jews to rest on shabbos, only Jews. (Jews believe that God is God of all, and all will go to heaven if righteous, but the special laws described in the Bible apply only to Jews). There is a rabbinical prohibition against directly asking a non jew to do something for you on shabbos except in case of great need or when you can arrange that the non jew will benefit from the action too.
    - emosenkis 5y ago
      1. Contexts in which a Shabbos goy is a permitted solution are quite restricted - it's not a "get out of Shabbos free" card. 2. A Shabbos goy, being human, has agency, while a device does not have agency, leaving the person using the device with responsibility for making the device do something. Such a company is not entirely unimaginable given sufficiently roundabout sensing mechanisms. It could be especially useful in Israel due to the majority of the population being Jewish and with many neighborhoods and towns nearing 100% Jewish residents. Mostly, though, religious Jews in Israel are just used to not having a Shabbos goy as an option. That said, the one time I found myself really stuck in a bind where a Shabbos goy was the only reasonable solution, I was fortunate enough to see a non-Jewish taxi driver pull over within minutes of going outside to look for one.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    A motion sensor seems to be doing something somewhat different. When there is no motion, no circuit is completed, and the connected appliance (e.g., a light) is off. Contrast that with a device that constantly scans for faces and is continuously sending instructions to the elevator controller. In this case, it is always sending an instruction about which floor to go to. If no one is present (and nothing is happening on other floors), the instruction is to stay on the current floor, doors open. If someone approaches and is not recognized, then on the Sabbath the instruction would be to go floor by floor. And if someone approaches and is recognized, the instruction would be to go to that person's floor. In any of the three cases, instructions are being sent via continuously-active circuitry. This is different from the motion sensor, where a circuit is completed only when someone is present and triggers it. But like I said, I know little of this subject, and I'm sure these ideas have been vigorously debated by experts!
tovmeod 5y ago
I believe a NFC tag would be muktse, so you shouldn't even be carrying it at all, eruv or no eruv. (muktse are things you can't move/carry/handle on shabat) Anyway I think activating something with it would be the same as activating a motion sensor, which is prohibited.

js4ever 5y ago

Indeed people that can will take the stairs, but think about old peoples or people that can't use stairs because of invalidity or temporary invalidity. For them the regular Shabbat mode is the only option. In some buildings the Shabbat mode is activated only at some hours and not for all Shabbat to save energy.

helge9210 5y ago
> but think about old peoples or people that can't use stairs because of invalidity or temporary invalidity Do you know, that in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods (in Israel) they don't call an ambulance to a dying relative or to a minor with serious injury and in pain (with both shoulders dislocated, for example) until the end of Shabbat?
- tovmeod 5y ago
  don't make stuff up, that does not even make sense. of course one can and should desecrate shabat to save a life
  - helge9210 5y ago
    I'm not making things up. My colleague was working as paramedic in those neighborhoods. By the end of the Shabbat doctor takes a pen and and a bunch of death certificates for people whose relatives won't use the phone during Shabbat. For the evening this is his only job.
    - sam_goody 5y ago
      You _are_ making it up. I have many family members who are in the medical profession in Israel. I have been behind the desk on Shabbat in Shaarei Tzedek Hospital (the "Haredi" hospital) that accepts incoming patients. There is not a single group of Jews that thinks it is admirable to risk a life for Shabbat. The more the religious, the more they value life and quicker break Shabbat. Do a bit of research in Hatzoloh and Joint Hatzoloh - it is impressive the lengths that volunteers go to, to save a life in Israel (Jewish and Muslim equally). They are active everywhere, and do not get fewer calls from the ultra-Orthodox.

dTal 5y ago

>While in it, I always contemplate other possible strategies the elevator could use to speed up the runtime Now, should you really be doing that on the Sabbath? What if you actually succeeded in coming up with a really clever algorithm? Would that not have been work? (And if not - what if you later discover that the elevator company has offered a bounty for exactly such a solution, and you proudly email it in and get your 50 bucks and free t-shirt. Is it now, retroactively, work?)

hawaiianbrah 5y ago
> What if you actually succeeded in coming up with a really clever algorithm? Would that not have been work? Actually implementing it would of course break Shabbat, but pondering it is fine.