6 ms·

What is the difference between hot water, light and cooking when it comes to the Sabbath?

rachet 5y ago
Intent mostly, the rest is whether you are creating or not. If you have a hot water urn, that is always on and doesn't receive new water, then consuming the water isn't usually an issue. You still need to double pour (put it in one cup then in a second to ensure it isn't hot enough to cook) but using it is OK. If you have a large hot water tank, consuming the water IS an issue. Mostly because the moment that you consume the water, you can reasonably assume that cold water will enter the tank. Once cold water enters the tank, it will likely start heating. Thus, you become the agent that turns the heaters on in the tank. But, if the hot water was flowing BEFORE shabbat and you consume the hot water, your action does not directly affect the actions taken by the heating components. The heater is already on and using an extra amount of water has minimal impact on when the heaters turn off. Thus it is more allowed. Light is about creation and less about the light than the means to get it. Switches create sparks internally, lights create heat (even LEDs), and you are completing a circuit. Completion can be seen as the final act of creation. And lastly, cooking takes something from in-edible to edible. Creating food from non-food. Even on foods that are permissible to warm, they must be edible before hand. They also cannot substantially change form -- nothing too liquid or anything that would go from solid to liquid. With that framework, warming up a piece of left over baked chicken would be OK, whereas making a grilled-cheese sandwich wouldn't be OK.
rtkwe 5y ago
Not much and at the same time everything. The 'short' answer is there's a lot of things forbidden on the Sabbath/Shabbat under Judaism, those are all forbidden; making fire (interpreted now to include operating basically any electronic switch), cooking (heating water included so no hot water UNLESS it's water already heated in the tank [0]). You can however reheat food it seems [1] provided the oven/warming tray runs continuously so you're not creating new fire/increasing existing fire/god knows what else. The accumulation of interpretation and rulings on various situations under the law means there's a thousand edge cases that have probably been brought up over the centuries and some ruling made. It all feels a bit like trying to rules lawyer god which is amusing to me as a TTRPG player but sounds exhausting if it were my real life. [0] Though you also have to shut off the inlet water to the tank because the new water entering and being heated by the existing heated water (which you can use) counts as a violation. Source: https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/579/getting-a-handle-on-your-faucet/ https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/579/getting... [1] https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/476/oven-kashrus-for-shabbos-use/ https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/476/oven-ka...
- xxpor 5y ago
  >trying to rules lawyer god This is probably one of the oldest traditions in Judaism, other than the Sabbath itself. The Jewish lawyer stereotype didn't come from nowhere :)
  - slg 5y ago
    I would refer people to the dual definitions of the word "Talmudic"[1] for further proof of this: 1. of or relating to the Talmud (the collection of Jewish law and tradition) 2. characterized by or making extremely fine distinctions; overly detailed or subtle; hairsplitting. It is extremely difficult to translate rules that were written thousands of years ago into guidance on modern life. Much of Jewish religious tradition has therefore embraced the debate, theorizing, and further definition of these rules into something that is more clear, logical, and can be practically applied by people who wish to follow them. "Does electricity count as fire?" might seem like an arbitrary and non-sensical question to someone on the outside, but it is incredibly important to how a modern Orthodox Jewish person would practice their religion and they therefore need an answer to it. "Trying to rules lawyer god" through debate and writing on the subject seems like one of the better ways to reach a satisfying and conclusive answer to this style of question. [1] - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/talmudic https://www.dictionary.com/browse/talmudic
    - rtkwe 5y ago
      The parts where it goes from 'seriously trying to follow the precepts of my religion' to 'rules lawyering' to me is the stuff like the eruv that encircles most of Manhattan [0] extending the 'private' zone where jews are allowed to carry things on the Sabbath or the decision that you can keep food warm in an oven so long as you take it all out at once so the additional burning that takes place after you open the door (your actions changing the functioning of the machine) is wasted and therefor unintentional (similar to the Sabbath mode on elevators). [0] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...

Intent mostly, the rest is whether you are creating or not. If you have a hot water urn, that is always on and doesn't receive new water, then consuming the water isn't usually an issue. You still need to double pour (put it in one cup then in a second to ensure it isn't hot enough to cook) but using it is OK. If you have a large hot water tank, consuming the water IS an issue. Mostly because the moment that you consume the water, you can reasonably assume that cold water will enter the tank. Once cold water enters the tank, it will likely start heating. Thus, you become the agent that turns the heaters on in the tank. But, if the hot water was flowing BEFORE shabbat and you consume the hot water, your action does not directly affect the actions taken by the heating components. The heater is already on and using an extra amount of water has minimal impact on when the heaters turn off. Thus it is more allowed. Light is about creation and less about the light than the means to get it. Switches create sparks internally, lights create heat (even LEDs), and you are completing a circuit. Completion can be seen as the final act of creation. And lastly, cooking takes something from in-edible to edible. Creating food from non-food. Even on foods that are permissible to warm, they must be edible before hand. They also cannot substantially change form -- nothing too liquid or anything that would go from solid to liquid. With that framework, warming up a piece of left over baked chicken would be OK, whereas making a grilled-cheese sandwich wouldn't be OK.

rtkwe 5y ago

Not much and at the same time everything. The 'short' answer is there's a lot of things forbidden on the Sabbath/Shabbat under Judaism, those are all forbidden; making fire (interpreted now to include operating basically any electronic switch), cooking (heating water included so no hot water UNLESS it's water already heated in the tank [0]). You can however reheat food it seems [1] provided the oven/warming tray runs continuously so you're not creating new fire/increasing existing fire/god knows what else. The accumulation of interpretation and rulings on various situations under the law means there's a thousand edge cases that have probably been brought up over the centuries and some ruling made. It all feels a bit like trying to rules lawyer god which is amusing to me as a TTRPG player but sounds exhausting if it were my real life. [0] Though you also have to shut off the inlet water to the tank because the new water entering and being heated by the existing heated water (which you can use) counts as a violation. Source: https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/579/getting-a-handle-on-your-faucet/ https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/579/getting... [1] https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/476/oven-kashrus-for-shabbos-use/ https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/476/oven-ka...

xxpor 5y ago
>trying to rules lawyer god This is probably one of the oldest traditions in Judaism, other than the Sabbath itself. The Jewish lawyer stereotype didn't come from nowhere :)
- slg 5y ago
  I would refer people to the dual definitions of the word "Talmudic"[1] for further proof of this: 1. of or relating to the Talmud (the collection of Jewish law and tradition) 2. characterized by or making extremely fine distinctions; overly detailed or subtle; hairsplitting. It is extremely difficult to translate rules that were written thousands of years ago into guidance on modern life. Much of Jewish religious tradition has therefore embraced the debate, theorizing, and further definition of these rules into something that is more clear, logical, and can be practically applied by people who wish to follow them. "Does electricity count as fire?" might seem like an arbitrary and non-sensical question to someone on the outside, but it is incredibly important to how a modern Orthodox Jewish person would practice their religion and they therefore need an answer to it. "Trying to rules lawyer god" through debate and writing on the subject seems like one of the better ways to reach a satisfying and conclusive answer to this style of question. [1] - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/talmudic https://www.dictionary.com/browse/talmudic
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    The parts where it goes from 'seriously trying to follow the precepts of my religion' to 'rules lawyering' to me is the stuff like the eruv that encircles most of Manhattan [0] extending the 'private' zone where jews are allowed to carry things on the Sabbath or the decision that you can keep food warm in an oven so long as you take it all out at once so the additional burning that takes place after you open the door (your actions changing the functioning of the machine) is wasted and therefor unintentional (similar to the Sabbath mode on elevators). [0] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...