7 ms·

What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? An elevator that cyc

What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? An elevator that cycles between floors and one that only moves to a floor to pick up a passenger when they wait in front of the door might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user. Would the difference matter? What about showing the intent to exit the elevator at a particular floor by e.g. taking a step towards the door of the cabin and having the elevator detect that? Telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok. Now let us assume that it is quite a shy liftboy, so we grant his wish to have a privacy shield to hide behind while taking the passenger’s wish. Would it matter if we replaced him with a voice assistant if the passenger had no way of telling that?

rachet 6y ago
> What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? The point is about the act of creation. Creation is the key point in just about all the laws. Turning on/off a switch, with intent, is an act of creation. Be it light, a spark, heat, or moving an elevator. Intent increases the severity of an action surely. Bumping into a light and turning it off, as long as it lacks intention, is more of an "oops, my bad" but you can't accidentally bump into it again. And if it's a common occurrence, you probably should address that issue since you know it will happen (you can't set someone up to fail). > ... might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user... And yes, perspective matters, which is one of the reasons many observant avoid it. If you see someone in front of an elevator (or TV, for that matter), an outside observer would assume you're pressing buttons and breaking the law. Since others may not know about your clever work-around, it's better to avoid it, so they don't see you getting the benefits of the work-around and then doing it directly themselves. This avoids others saying "I saw an observant guy get in the elevator and part of an elevator is pressing buttons, so pressing buttons must be OK". The door sensors of elevators are another problem. On many with a shabbat mode, they only activate right before closing the door, but it is easy to make a mistake and the doors will re-open. This is another reason they are avoided by many if possible. > telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok... Telling a liftboy is not okay. You can't order someone to do something that they wouldn't have done on their own that you aren't permitted to do yourself. If you're forbidden from turning on a light, asking someone to do it turns them into your agent, which is the same as doing it yourself. But there, like many things, is a work around. If you handed someone a book for them to read, and it was dark, you know they will want to turn on the light. But since you're not asking them to turn on the light, you're asking them to read a book -- if they turn on the light, you have no agency in that action. In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. If their job is to press the button, then it is an issue, if it is a non-employee, it's probably less of an issue. Even here, there are nuances like intent and context. If you're younger or more healthy, it's probably better to take the stairs. If you're in a high-rise and even healthy people would have issues taking the stairs, it's probably more permissible. Then, even in a high-rise, if you're going down (which is easier) then maybe the context would be different enough were the same circumstances that permitted you to use it going up aren't available for going down! As mentioned by others, the circumstances and context really matter along with the perspective of yourself and those around you. That is why there have been countless books and discussions on some seemingly simple matters.
- Vespasian 6y ago
  Do emergency services work on Shabbat? If their apartment catches on fire would a very orthodox person be allowed to use an extinguisher / carry out some of their belongings?
  - dvirsky 6y ago
    Sure, there is a principle called Pikuach Nefesh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh) (literal translation - watching over the soul) which means that anything that endangers people's lives is more important than Shabbat. You can certainly drive to a hospital or call 911 or whatever if it's a matter of life or death or an emergency.
    - jaza 6y ago
      Not just Shabbat: "Pikuach nefesh ... is the principle in Jewish law that the preservation of human life overrides virtually any other religious rule."
- bscphil 6y ago
  > In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. Isn't this a little like arguing that by telling someone I know is a hitman a physical description of a target and where a large pot of money is buried I haven't intended for him to carry out a hit? I don't think that would hold up in court (especially if it could be shown that this was an established practice for setting up a hit). Do religious laws work differently?
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    >and where a large pot of money is buried This is obviously the problem here. When you say to a gentile "it's dark in here", you're not actually telling them that you want them to turn on the light for you, when they do so it's their choice entirely. If you said "Anyone who turns on the lights will be paid", that would actually be prohibited. I think the following article is pretty good (https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Summary_of_Amirah_LeNochri https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Summary_of_Amir...).
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Closing a switch has been determined to be equivalent to starting a fire. Some workarounds use magnetic switches which are acceptable to some.
- airhead969 6y ago
  Magical thinking beliefs are arbitrary, inconsistent, and irrational. There's no difference between someone deciding using commercially-made paper is "against their religion," using only air-powered equipment and no electricity, meat is "bad" on certain days, fasting until sunset, putting a box with scrolls on their head, putting hooks through their bodies, or building a web-server entirely in 8051 assembly. It's all virtue-signaling self-flagellation.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    @dang -- Should HN allow the mocking one particular race, religion, and culture?
    - bardorna 6y ago
      How is that the case here?
    - detaro 6y ago
      expecting dang to have seen this post within 7 minutes is expecting a bit much...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dang 5y ago
      That post was certainly a bad HN comment, as I've replied. But this is not a problem related specifically to one religion: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20religious%20flamewar&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... Matter of fact, we had a comparable case the day before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012837 Two religions, same issue. If there were a third post about a third religion and a fourth about a fourth, we'd see the same problem with those. HN commenters need to learn not to post when they're not in a curious state. When a person gets activated or provoked on a topic that they feel strongly about, that's not likely to be a curious state. One needs to pause until thoughtful conversation becomes possible again. This is not easy—it's something we all need to work on. When the topic is divisive—and religion is maybe the most divisive topic of all—multiply the above by 100x. p.s. Putting @dang in threads is a no-op. I only saw your comment randomly. If you want to tell us or ask us something, you should email hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
bradrn 6y ago
> What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? My understanding as a Jew (though not Orthodox) is that you are forbidden from manually turning electrical devices on and off, and from altering the behaviour of a running device. So if you, say, accidentally turn on a stove just before the Sabbath starts, you then cannot turn it off until the Sabbath ends (or you get a non-Jew to do it for you). > An elevator that cycles between floors and one that only moves to a floor to pick up a passenger when they wait in front of the door might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user. Would the difference matter? IANA rabbi, but I suspect this does indeed matter. In the former case the elevator is just doing the same thing over and over again, while in the latter case the user is actively controlling the elevator. > What about showing the intent to exit the elevator at a particular floor by e.g. taking a step towards the door of the cabin and having the elevator detect that? Again, I suspect this would be forbidden.
- lebuffon 6y ago
  Hmmm... Never thought of this before. Does this mean that in future an electric AI shabos goy (gentile assistant for things like the stove problem) could not be Kashrut (Kosher) since giving it commands could close electric circuits?
  - TchoBeer 6y ago
    Yeah obviously an electronic shabbat goy is prohibited.
  - rtkwe 6y ago
    Far from a Rabbinic expert but from what I've read it shouldn't be Kosher because you're still initiating the action with the intent of performing something that's otherwise forbidden to do directly, the method of operation for the assistant doesn't really factor in.
  - vxNsr 6y ago
    There is a discussion about whether you can use Alexa/Siri/HG on Shabbat.
fortran77 6y ago
> Telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok Why is it that Hacker News loves to bring up topics where Jewish Law is discussed by non Jews during the Sabbath in the U.S. when most Jews who read Hacker News won't be able to provide correct information? (I am in Jerusalem this week, where it's already Sunday)
- bardorna 6y ago
  Probably because it being the Sabbath reminds people of the topic
- Teever 6y ago
  You seem to be implying that there's some sort of concerted effort to do this. Is this an actual thing that you've noticed? As in do you have any sort of data or proof to back up this assertion that there's some sort of conspiracy to discuss the Sabbath when Jews can't discuss it?
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Some of it is probably a direct result of people signing off of social media for the day (prompting other people to think thoughts about it).
- tguvot 6y ago
  What makes you think that most of Jews on HN observe Sabbath ? Signed: Jew, where it's still Sabbath
  - dvirsky 6y ago
    Well obviously if you don't observe Sabbath you're not a _real_ Jew. /s
    - tguvot 6y ago
      oy vey
    - fortran77 6y ago

rachet 6y ago

> What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? The point is about the act of creation. Creation is the key point in just about all the laws. Turning on/off a switch, with intent, is an act of creation. Be it light, a spark, heat, or moving an elevator. Intent increases the severity of an action surely. Bumping into a light and turning it off, as long as it lacks intention, is more of an "oops, my bad" but you can't accidentally bump into it again. And if it's a common occurrence, you probably should address that issue since you know it will happen (you can't set someone up to fail). > ... might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user... And yes, perspective matters, which is one of the reasons many observant avoid it. If you see someone in front of an elevator (or TV, for that matter), an outside observer would assume you're pressing buttons and breaking the law. Since others may not know about your clever work-around, it's better to avoid it, so they don't see you getting the benefits of the work-around and then doing it directly themselves. This avoids others saying "I saw an observant guy get in the elevator and part of an elevator is pressing buttons, so pressing buttons must be OK". The door sensors of elevators are another problem. On many with a shabbat mode, they only activate right before closing the door, but it is easy to make a mistake and the doors will re-open. This is another reason they are avoided by many if possible. > telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok... Telling a liftboy is not okay. You can't order someone to do something that they wouldn't have done on their own that you aren't permitted to do yourself. If you're forbidden from turning on a light, asking someone to do it turns them into your agent, which is the same as doing it yourself. But there, like many things, is a work around. If you handed someone a book for them to read, and it was dark, you know they will want to turn on the light. But since you're not asking them to turn on the light, you're asking them to read a book -- if they turn on the light, you have no agency in that action. In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. If their job is to press the button, then it is an issue, if it is a non-employee, it's probably less of an issue. Even here, there are nuances like intent and context. If you're younger or more healthy, it's probably better to take the stairs. If you're in a high-rise and even healthy people would have issues taking the stairs, it's probably more permissible. Then, even in a high-rise, if you're going down (which is easier) then maybe the context would be different enough were the same circumstances that permitted you to use it going up aren't available for going down! As mentioned by others, the circumstances and context really matter along with the perspective of yourself and those around you. That is why there have been countless books and discussions on some seemingly simple matters.

Vespasian 6y ago
Do emergency services work on Shabbat? If their apartment catches on fire would a very orthodox person be allowed to use an extinguisher / carry out some of their belongings?
- dvirsky 6y ago
  Sure, there is a principle called Pikuach Nefesh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh) (literal translation - watching over the soul) which means that anything that endangers people's lives is more important than Shabbat. You can certainly drive to a hospital or call 911 or whatever if it's a matter of life or death or an emergency.
  - jaza 6y ago
    Not just Shabbat: "Pikuach nefesh ... is the principle in Jewish law that the preservation of human life overrides virtually any other religious rule."
bscphil 6y ago
> In the case of a lift boy or attendant, if you walked into the elevator and said something like "I live on the 7th floor" it's debatable if you intend for the person to press the button. Isn't this a little like arguing that by telling someone I know is a hitman a physical description of a target and where a large pot of money is buried I haven't intended for him to carry out a hit? I don't think that would hold up in court (especially if it could be shown that this was an established practice for setting up a hit). Do religious laws work differently?
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  >and where a large pot of money is buried This is obviously the problem here. When you say to a gentile "it's dark in here", you're not actually telling them that you want them to turn on the light for you, when they do so it's their choice entirely. If you said "Anyone who turns on the lights will be paid", that would actually be prohibited. I think the following article is pretty good (https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Summary_of_Amirah_LeNochri https://www.halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Summary_of_Amir...).

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

Closing a switch has been determined to be equivalent to starting a fire. Some workarounds use magnetic switches which are acceptable to some.

airhead969 6y ago
Magical thinking beliefs are arbitrary, inconsistent, and irrational. There's no difference between someone deciding using commercially-made paper is "against their religion," using only air-powered equipment and no electricity, meat is "bad" on certain days, fasting until sunset, putting a box with scrolls on their head, putting hooks through their bodies, or building a web-server entirely in 8051 assembly. It's all virtue-signaling self-flagellation.
- fortran77 6y ago
  @dang -- Should HN allow the mocking one particular race, religion, and culture?
  - bardorna 6y ago
    How is that the case here?
  - detaro 6y ago
    expecting dang to have seen this post within 7 minutes is expecting a bit much...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 5y ago
    That post was certainly a bad HN comment, as I've replied. But this is not a problem related specifically to one religion: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20religious%20flamewar&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... Matter of fact, we had a comparable case the day before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27012837 Two religions, same issue. If there were a third post about a third religion and a fourth about a fourth, we'd see the same problem with those. HN commenters need to learn not to post when they're not in a curious state. When a person gets activated or provoked on a topic that they feel strongly about, that's not likely to be a curious state. One needs to pause until thoughtful conversation becomes possible again. This is not easy—it's something we all need to work on. When the topic is divisive—and religion is maybe the most divisive topic of all—multiply the above by 100x. p.s. Putting @dang in threads is a no-op. I only saw your comment randomly. If you want to tell us or ask us something, you should email hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

bradrn 6y ago

> What’s the meaning of „the Sabbath prohibition against operating electrical devices“? Not executing a physical action? Any action? Intent? My understanding as a Jew (though not Orthodox) is that you are forbidden from manually turning electrical devices on and off, and from altering the behaviour of a running device. So if you, say, accidentally turn on a stove just before the Sabbath starts, you then cannot turn it off until the Sabbath ends (or you get a non-Jew to do it for you). > An elevator that cycles between floors and one that only moves to a floor to pick up a passenger when they wait in front of the door might be indistinguishable from the perspective of the user. Would the difference matter? IANA rabbi, but I suspect this does indeed matter. In the former case the elevator is just doing the same thing over and over again, while in the latter case the user is actively controlling the elevator. > What about showing the intent to exit the elevator at a particular floor by e.g. taking a step towards the door of the cabin and having the elevator detect that? Again, I suspect this would be forbidden.

lebuffon 6y ago
Hmmm... Never thought of this before. Does this mean that in future an electric AI shabos goy (gentile assistant for things like the stove problem) could not be Kashrut (Kosher) since giving it commands could close electric circuits?
- TchoBeer 6y ago
  Yeah obviously an electronic shabbat goy is prohibited.
- rtkwe 6y ago
  Far from a Rabbinic expert but from what I've read it shouldn't be Kosher because you're still initiating the action with the intent of performing something that's otherwise forbidden to do directly, the method of operation for the assistant doesn't really factor in.
- vxNsr 6y ago
  There is a discussion about whether you can use Alexa/Siri/HG on Shabbat.

fortran77 6y ago

> Telling a liftboy where to go seems to be ok Why is it that Hacker News loves to bring up topics where Jewish Law is discussed by non Jews during the Sabbath in the U.S. when most Jews who read Hacker News won't be able to provide correct information? (I am in Jerusalem this week, where it's already Sunday)

bardorna 6y ago
Probably because it being the Sabbath reminds people of the topic
Teever 6y ago
You seem to be implying that there's some sort of concerted effort to do this. Is this an actual thing that you've noticed? As in do you have any sort of data or proof to back up this assertion that there's some sort of conspiracy to discuss the Sabbath when Jews can't discuss it?
maxerickson 6y ago
Some of it is probably a direct result of people signing off of social media for the day (prompting other people to think thoughts about it).
tguvot 6y ago
What makes you think that most of Jews on HN observe Sabbath ? Signed: Jew, where it's still Sabbath
- dvirsky 6y ago
  Well obviously if you don't observe Sabbath you're not a _real_ Jew. /s
  - tguvot 6y ago
    oy vey
  - fortran77 6y ago