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Appsterdam: A Haven for Indie App Makers?
- skrebbel 15y agoAre you going to post new Appsterdam articles every day now?
- tomh- 15y agoInstead of promoting Appsterdam with vague stories about how awesome Amsterdam is, I like to see more concrete and specific information. I understand that its just starting up, but this would be nice to have in the (near) future. Like: - Average cost of living is X - Developers can earn X-Z salary - Tax burden for companies is X - You can find apartments in the range of X-Y at site Z - X companies joined this initiative and are hiring - There are weekly meetups at Bar X,Y,Z at time A - Successful companies in Amsterdam include X,Y,Z they are all hanging out at location A
- bxc 15y agowell, NL is pretty expensive to live in if you're earning USD; the tax burden is high if you're used to the US (though there's some offset because that tax includes what would be private medical insurance in the US); and people are forever grumbling about how hard it is to find places to live in Amsterdam. So maybe there's a reason for that. The meeting on 6th July in their event planner is labelled as 'weekly' though that would mean there should be one in a couple days too (?)
- vegasbrianc 15y agoI lived in The Netherlands (right outside Amsterdam) for 6 years. It is a nice country with a lot to do and see when it wasn't raining. But the Dutch tax the heck out of you on everything. On the flip side you get an 8% holiday bonus mandatory by the government but most companies already compensate this into your salary already. If you are an entrepreneur I would recommend never to hire a fulltime employee and only hire contractors or be absolutely certain on who you hire. We had such big problems with a few employees and the government would not let us fire them. Our company had to pay them compensation and help find them a new job?!?! We also had another employee that became to stressed with the workload and the Dutch government told us we had to pay his salary until he returns for up to 2 years. Finally the nail in the coffin for me was the weather. I couldn't take wind and rain for what seemed like months straight and summer lasting for sometimes only 1 month. I wish Appsterdam success but for me I prefer lower taxes and better climate. Malta or Switzerland anyone?
- saghul 15y agoAbout taxes: yes, they are high, very. But, if you play your cards right you can get the '30% regeling', which means 30% of your salary is tax free. IIRC you can get it for 4 years, and can be extended to 10.
- richcollins 15y agoI pay $100 a month for insurance and make $150 an hour contracting. I'm guessing that I would lose way more money in taxes by taking free healthcare in the Netherlands.
- muhfuhkuh 15y agoI doubt that $100 covers everything the Dutch system would. And, if you have/had any kind of illness (current or pre-existing), I sincerely doubt it.
- richcollins 15y ago
- DeusExMachina 15y agoWe are definitely going to provide all this info, just give us some time. Thank you for the feedback.
- natural219 15y agoI wish there was a list like this for every city.
- barredo 15y agothat's an idea right there
- mkrecny 15y agoyep : )
- aubergene 15y agoAges ago I used to work for Employment Conditions Abroad, they have type of info, but I'm not sure how they sell it now (back then it was about selling CD-ROMs) http://www.eca-international.com/ http://www.eca-international.com/
- vesto 15y agoWhat about the language barrier? Is English prominent enough in Amsterdam to easily get through everyday interactions or would you need to learn an entirely new language in order to truly enjoy the city?
- tomh- 15y agoYou can survive with English in Amsterdam and the Netherlands as well. Children learn english from the age of 9-10, TV programs are typically not dubbed so the odds are that you can have conversations in English with everyone you encounter.
- sunchild 15y agoYes, to the point that learning Dutch on the fly is hard because nobody will try to speak it with you when they are so good with English.
- rickmb 15y agoTypical anecdote in that respect: we have a German and a Greek developer on our team in Amsterdam. They practice Dutch by speaking it to each other, because everyone else will automatically switch to English.
- skrebbel 15y agoIf you approach someone in Dutch speaking with a (non-middle eastern) accent, people will switch to English without asking. It's horribly annoying really, learning the language (and thus really picking up the oh so important subtleties in professional and private life) is made really difficult this way. People often explain it as kindness, but it's really just plain rude laziness: for many Dutch people, speaking slow and clear Dutch requires a lot more energy than upspeed English. Let alone listening to and trying to understand broken Dutch.
- Bootvis 15y agoWell, I've never looked at it that way. Next time I will be more thoughtfull.
- bxc 15y agonow I've made two comments on this thread which make amsterdam sound kinda negative; so now I feel that I have to say that, no no amsterdam is a cool place to live ;)
- breck 15y ago> "The conclusion I came to was that Amsterdam was the most livable city in the world." Before publicly stating that idea I would have waited until I had lived in the place for a few years. I've been to Amsterdam and about 50 or so other cities in 30 countries(sorry for the humble brag here). I would never come to that conclusion for one reason: the winter weather. I personally love the Northern California climate and would say San Francisco is the most livable city in the world(I've lived there for 2.5 years). But Amsterdam is a cool place and a great city. I could see how it'd be nice to live there if you don't mind crummy weather in the winter.
- DeusExMachina 15y agoHe was here this winter and I can tell you it was pretty cold, so he already experienced it. From my personal point of view I can tell you that it's bearable. I biked all winter long and I can bear it. That's not the only way to move of course, and a lot of people take public transport during the winter, even though a good percentage still bikes. Moreover I like much more changing seasons and I'm not really a fan of hot weather. That's why I love the summer here, it's more like a long spring. Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences. I know people here that don't like the weather and others that live with it very well. Here I learned not to care that much about the weather, and it works for me.
- breck 15y ago> Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences. Exactly. I'm glad there are people like you that enjoy the winters(my family in Boston does too--to a degree). Otherwise everyone would move to places like California and it'd be pretty hard to live!
- byrne 15y agoTo call Mike Lee a huge dope head would be an understatement.
- kaiwetzel 15y agoThere were some interesting discussions here on hacker news before about alternatives for startups in Europe [1], [2]. I don't quite understand the part about Berlin, though - why not raise a family in Berlin (especially if the alternative is not some rural area but other large cities)? I found the side-stab against Ireland a little weird as well, wouldn't have considered Dublin to be "in the middle of nowhere", or was that about attracting developers to join your startup in Dublin being hard? (Never tried that, could well be the case). The last time I was in Amsterdam 10 years ago I thought it would be a nice place to live, but I feel the same about Ireland and I am living in Berlin right now, so ... ) To put it short: I think all 4 cities are worth taking into account and it depends a lot on your particular situation. Seeing startup funds like this pop up is awesome and I hope more places in Europe will follow :°) [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573513 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573513 (link-baity title though)
- amouat 15y agoI think the point about Dublin is that it is a bit further away if you are in mainland Europe. It's not that far though, and it is closer to the USA.
- c4urself 15y agoThe guy in the article is using Amsterdam too much as the reason for Appsterdam; in the end the _community_ will make it what it is, whether it's the best city or not won't matter if the community is a success. That being said Amsterdam has enough of the ingredients to make that happen, and I think it's a wonderful initiative, keep it going!
- Tichy 15y agoPfff, Appsterdam - I say Apperlin http://twitter.com/#!/fractality/status/85371377254809600 http://twitter.com/#!/fractality/status/85371377254809600 Join the movement to make Berlin the new Sillicon Valley.
- credo 15y agoIt is interesting that venturebeat stories about Appsterdam are making it to the front page this week. A few weeks ago, I submitted the original Appsterdam blog post to HN http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2476430 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2476430 That post was killed within minutes :)
- richcollins 15y agoI myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a self-employed person I'm self employed. It wasn't that hard to get health insurance. I guess YMMV.
- bxc 15y agoIn NL? You're required by law to have health insurance and the insurance companies are required to give it to you. Assuming you're there legally.
- gavanwoolery 15y agoFrom the article: “I became disillusioned with the way the United States was going in general. I myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a self-employed person.” Uh...no way of getting health insurance? How about PAYING for it? I hardly make any money, but I can still afford the $120/month I pay for my health insurance. Even if you go to a country like Europe with socialized healthcare, you are still paying for it if you are making money, via taxes. In fact, you are paying MORE for it since you are paying for your health insurance plus insurance for all of the unemployed. Taxes go over 50 percent of income in many European countries. In other words, there is no such thing as "free" healthcare - someone always pays for it.
- mattblalock 15y agoI am a healthy 24 year old male, no health problems in any way. I was quoted health insurance in an attempt to find it after college, the cheapest plan was $690/month.
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- wtvanhest 15y agoYou need to look harder.
- mattblalock 15y agoLook harder? What does that mean? There are what... 6 health insurance providers per state? They all decide you are expensive, sucks to be you....
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- JCB_K 15y agoYou seem to think paying for insurance for the unemployed is negative...and it probably is, until you're unemployed yourself. It's not so much about wether you're paying it yourself, or via taxes, but it's about social security. After all, you need help most in times you can't afford it.
- lallouz 15y agoI'm pretty surprised that the topic of immigration and work visas hasn't come up in this thread (unless I missed it, if so I appologize). - I for one am very curious about laws around foreigners coming to Amsterdam to work, securing work visas etc.? - How easy is it for an entrepreneur to move there i.e. no job offer, just moving and looking for contract or to start their own company?