3 ms·

Not as clear as case as we've been led to believe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYWSXRUGxDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYWSXRUGxDQ

tomerico 5y ago
Interesting watch. TL;DW - Apes like Koko were raised by trainers who did not perform rigorous scientific measurements and were prone to bias. Research on Apes became immoral over time, hence less recent examples exist. The most recent and rigorous study is on a bonobo, where communication is done using touchscreen with buttons saying words (lexigrams). Even in this case interaction seems to be limited to “give me an item” or “put item in box”.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  > Research on Apes became immoral over time Teaching apes sign language became viewed as immoral?
  - ReaLNero 5y ago
    Raising them only by interacting with a single person (not of their species!) would be immoral for a human baby, and depending on your views of ethics, also immoral for a gorilla.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      Oh, I didn't realize that was somehow required to teach them sign language.
- barrkel 5y ago
  Do you mean fewer recent examples exist? "Less recent examples exist" is a positive assertion about the existence of even older examples. The 'less' attaches to the 'recent'. 'Less' can't attach to 'examples' because you can't have 'less examples', because 'examples' is countable. "Fewer recent examples exist" is a negative assertion about the existence of newer examples. The 'fewer' attaches to the 'examples'.
dehrmann 5y ago
"Can Apes Really 'Talk' To Humans?" Nit: humans are apes.
- avereveard 5y ago
  No, topmost common branch is hominidae
chrischen 5y ago
Still miles ahead of a dog. Can you train a dog to understand “put the pine needles in the refrigerator?”
- cgriswald 5y ago
  It’s hard to say what’s happening in the video. If the ape is given a command-object-location and must discern all three to correctly complete the task, that would be difficult for a dog. (However, I suspect with as many hours of training as the ape has had, a dog could probably do it. I speculate it would learn all possible trios and remember them as individual commands rather than reconstructing them.) If the ape is instead given an object and already knows he’s supposed to put it in the fridge, yes, a dog can do that easily. Given a command-object or command-location, a dog can do that as well. A dog can discern “Go bed” or “go kennel” or “fetch ball” or “fetch toy”. “Put ball bed” would be tough. (Dogs won’t “hear” all the cruft words like “the”, they’ll focus in on words they know and puzzle away.) In any case the degree to which the ape in the video “understands” isn’t clear. It’s possible even with command-object-location test, the ape is doing what I suspect the dog would do. The difference between them might be scale, rather than kind.
  - chrischen 5y ago
    I think they implied the ape could distinguish because they mentioned the trouble was dealing with two items.
chmod775 5y ago
Not a clear case of what? It was obvious to me she was able to understand and communicate. Obvious in the same it was for most humans I've met.

tomerico 5y ago

Interesting watch. TL;DW - Apes like Koko were raised by trainers who did not perform rigorous scientific measurements and were prone to bias. Research on Apes became immoral over time, hence less recent examples exist. The most recent and rigorous study is on a bonobo, where communication is done using touchscreen with buttons saying words (lexigrams). Even in this case interaction seems to be limited to “give me an item” or “put item in box”.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
> Research on Apes became immoral over time Teaching apes sign language became viewed as immoral?
- ReaLNero 5y ago
  Raising them only by interacting with a single person (not of their species!) would be immoral for a human baby, and depending on your views of ethics, also immoral for a gorilla.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    Oh, I didn't realize that was somehow required to teach them sign language.
barrkel 5y ago
Do you mean fewer recent examples exist? "Less recent examples exist" is a positive assertion about the existence of even older examples. The 'less' attaches to the 'recent'. 'Less' can't attach to 'examples' because you can't have 'less examples', because 'examples' is countable. "Fewer recent examples exist" is a negative assertion about the existence of newer examples. The 'fewer' attaches to the 'examples'.

dehrmann 5y ago

"Can Apes Really 'Talk' To Humans?" Nit: humans are apes.

avereveard 5y ago
No, topmost common branch is hominidae

chrischen 5y ago

Still miles ahead of a dog. Can you train a dog to understand “put the pine needles in the refrigerator?”

cgriswald 5y ago
It’s hard to say what’s happening in the video. If the ape is given a command-object-location and must discern all three to correctly complete the task, that would be difficult for a dog. (However, I suspect with as many hours of training as the ape has had, a dog could probably do it. I speculate it would learn all possible trios and remember them as individual commands rather than reconstructing them.) If the ape is instead given an object and already knows he’s supposed to put it in the fridge, yes, a dog can do that easily. Given a command-object or command-location, a dog can do that as well. A dog can discern “Go bed” or “go kennel” or “fetch ball” or “fetch toy”. “Put ball bed” would be tough. (Dogs won’t “hear” all the cruft words like “the”, they’ll focus in on words they know and puzzle away.) In any case the degree to which the ape in the video “understands” isn’t clear. It’s possible even with command-object-location test, the ape is doing what I suspect the dog would do. The difference between them might be scale, rather than kind.
- chrischen 5y ago
  I think they implied the ape could distinguish because they mentioned the trouble was dealing with two items.

chmod775 5y ago

Not a clear case of what? It was obvious to me she was able to understand and communicate. Obvious in the same it was for most humans I've met.