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It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems. For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car

It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems. For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story. Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion. Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been happening with John Deere tractors: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-...

fouric 6y ago
Yes, but that's a losing game - the manufacturers will continually tighten security until it's infeasible - see how difficult it is to jailbreak current-generation iPhones and game consoles, for instance. The only ways out are social (consumers acting en masse to exert market pressure) or legal (regulation). You can't hack your way around this issue - as the attacker, the strong crypto that exists (and enables things like firmware signing) is not on your side.
- thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  Sadly, you are right. One of the themes in "Car Wars" is that laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. The reasons cited for the laws are "for safety", but it seems like a thin veneer over the car manufacturer having complete control of the car's software, and by extension the car itself.
  - atat7024 6y ago
    > laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. Enforcement impossible.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  But the thing is, those things will be broken in the future. Even if unfeasible now, they will be in future.
- fy20 6y ago
  Not everyone cares about regulations :-) My country has (since fall of USSR) been one of the biggest used car markets in Europe, and as cars have added more and more electronics people have started figuring out how they work and developing tools to work around them. I recently came across (randomly browsing) a device developed here that plugs into the OBD port and disables the AdBlue system (an extra fluid you need to fill up often, which reduces emissions on newer diesel engines, if you don't the vehicle refuses to start). The advertising was targeted at commercial vehicles. It's not illegal for the manufacturer to make, and if the driver of the truck is ever stopped by police they just pull it out. Nobody is any the wiser. But saving ~5% of the fuel costs definitely affects the bottom line of the company.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Does AdBlue comply with some sort of legal regulations on emissions?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Honestly, I hope people who disable the emission control systems on their cars get the book thrown at them.
    - fy20 6y ago
      That's a tricky comment. For disabling something that is perfectly functional I agree, but if it's broken then what to do? Since the late 2000s all diesel vehicles sold in Europe have had a diesel particulate filter (DPF) that helps reduce NOx emissions. After 150,000 - 200,000km these end up becoming blocked up and need replacing. If you don't you'll have reduced engine power and could even damage the engine. Except you can't get a replacement, these parts are designed for that specific car, often have complicated electronics, etc. You can sometimes get remanufactured or used parts from salvage, but they probably aren't going to last very long and are still expensive (€1500+ for parts and labour). So you have a car that is perfectly functional, except the emissions system is broken. Replacing it may cost a significant fraction of the value of the car. What pretty much everyone does (even in Western countries) is have it removed. Of course you aren't supposed to, and this is supposed to be checked when the vehicle is inspected (visually, note that car inspections do not test NOx emissions in Europe), but everyone turns a blind eye. The manufacturers are the ones who are really to blame here. Why make something that can't be replaced on the car? I'd really like to see the EU taking a harder line on diesel engines (petrol is much less polluting), but it's probably not going to happen because of the big car manufacturers who are all heavily invested in diesel. In most of Europe petrol is taxed more than diesel, which from an environmental viewpoint really doesn't make any sense. With hybrid technology petrol can be just as fuel efficient, and is mechanically much simpler. At least EVs seem to be set to take over both for light vehicles.
bellyfullofbac 6y ago
There's a worry that insurance won't cover you if the car manufacturers say "Oh he hacked the software". Accidentally hit someone? Now you have to pay the full damage. Got into an accident? Sorry, pay your own hospital, your coverage has been cancelled. A neater hack would be for the jailbreak to delete itself and restore the original software when it detects that the car crashed, e.g. do it on airbag deployment.
- thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  >> There's a worry that insurance won't cover you if the car manufacturers say "Oh he hacked the software". Accidentally hit someone? Now you have to pay the full damage. Got into an accident? Sorry, pay your own hospital, your coverage has been cancelled. You bring up a good point, but that assumes that there are problems with the replacement car software. People repair and modify their own cars today and most insurers do not object unless their is some kind of gross negligence / unsafe modifications.
- Karsteski 6y ago
  Perhaps we need a version of FOSS for insurance then. However there is far too much legal red tape in the insurance industry, and it is certainly not a free market where disrupters can enter easily...
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
Voiding the warranty of your phone is one thing, but on your car? What if it voids the insurance?
- thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
  That depends on the terms of the insurance. Does car insurance prevent car owners from doing their own maintenance or modifications? Does the car insurance require the car owner to only go to specific shops / dealerships for repairs?
fmntf 6y ago
That's unrealistic. A car contains several ECUs. Each ECU has one or more MCU/CPU. Every core runs its software, 99% of the time documentation is available only under NDA. Reimplementing the software for just one MCU/CPU is challenging even for who is part of the industry.
- detaro 6y ago
  If you wanted to go for "replace everything", sure. But that's not what you need for unlocking features and maybe some UI stuff. (I still suspect it won't be that common, but I'd assume it to be much more in line with other jailbreaking projects)
- smolder 6y ago
  There have been 3rd party ECUs for decades, "piggyback" fuel and spark controllers which take over functionality of the main ecu, devices to disable rev/speed limiters, custom transmission controllers, and so on. I wouldn't discount the aftermarket's ability to develop something that fulfills owners' needs. (Post-warranty)
m463 6y ago
I believe this will happen too. It might be happening now - there seem to be tesla folks who have messed with their cars. But it will be a struggle back and forth.

fouric 6y ago

Yes, but that's a losing game - the manufacturers will continually tighten security until it's infeasible - see how difficult it is to jailbreak current-generation iPhones and game consoles, for instance. The only ways out are social (consumers acting en masse to exert market pressure) or legal (regulation). You can't hack your way around this issue - as the attacker, the strong crypto that exists (and enables things like firmware signing) is not on your side.

thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
Sadly, you are right. One of the themes in "Car Wars" is that laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. The reasons cited for the laws are "for safety", but it seems like a thin veneer over the car manufacturer having complete control of the car's software, and by extension the car itself.
- atat7024 6y ago
  > laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. Enforcement impossible.
Ygg2 6y ago
But the thing is, those things will be broken in the future. Even if unfeasible now, they will be in future.
fy20 6y ago
Not everyone cares about regulations :-) My country has (since fall of USSR) been one of the biggest used car markets in Europe, and as cars have added more and more electronics people have started figuring out how they work and developing tools to work around them. I recently came across (randomly browsing) a device developed here that plugs into the OBD port and disables the AdBlue system (an extra fluid you need to fill up often, which reduces emissions on newer diesel engines, if you don't the vehicle refuses to start). The advertising was targeted at commercial vehicles. It's not illegal for the manufacturer to make, and if the driver of the truck is ever stopped by police they just pull it out. Nobody is any the wiser. But saving ~5% of the fuel costs definitely affects the bottom line of the company.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Does AdBlue comply with some sort of legal regulations on emissions?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Honestly, I hope people who disable the emission control systems on their cars get the book thrown at them.
  - fy20 6y ago
    That's a tricky comment. For disabling something that is perfectly functional I agree, but if it's broken then what to do? Since the late 2000s all diesel vehicles sold in Europe have had a diesel particulate filter (DPF) that helps reduce NOx emissions. After 150,000 - 200,000km these end up becoming blocked up and need replacing. If you don't you'll have reduced engine power and could even damage the engine. Except you can't get a replacement, these parts are designed for that specific car, often have complicated electronics, etc. You can sometimes get remanufactured or used parts from salvage, but they probably aren't going to last very long and are still expensive (€1500+ for parts and labour). So you have a car that is perfectly functional, except the emissions system is broken. Replacing it may cost a significant fraction of the value of the car. What pretty much everyone does (even in Western countries) is have it removed. Of course you aren't supposed to, and this is supposed to be checked when the vehicle is inspected (visually, note that car inspections do not test NOx emissions in Europe), but everyone turns a blind eye. The manufacturers are the ones who are really to blame here. Why make something that can't be replaced on the car? I'd really like to see the EU taking a harder line on diesel engines (petrol is much less polluting), but it's probably not going to happen because of the big car manufacturers who are all heavily invested in diesel. In most of Europe petrol is taxed more than diesel, which from an environmental viewpoint really doesn't make any sense. With hybrid technology petrol can be just as fuel efficient, and is mechanically much simpler. At least EVs seem to be set to take over both for light vehicles.

bellyfullofbac 6y ago

There's a worry that insurance won't cover you if the car manufacturers say "Oh he hacked the software". Accidentally hit someone? Now you have to pay the full damage. Got into an accident? Sorry, pay your own hospital, your coverage has been cancelled. A neater hack would be for the jailbreak to delete itself and restore the original software when it detects that the car crashed, e.g. do it on airbag deployment.

thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
>> There's a worry that insurance won't cover you if the car manufacturers say "Oh he hacked the software". Accidentally hit someone? Now you have to pay the full damage. Got into an accident? Sorry, pay your own hospital, your coverage has been cancelled. You bring up a good point, but that assumes that there are problems with the replacement car software. People repair and modify their own cars today and most insurers do not object unless their is some kind of gross negligence / unsafe modifications.
Karsteski 6y ago
Perhaps we need a version of FOSS for insurance then. However there is far too much legal red tape in the insurance industry, and it is certainly not a free market where disrupters can enter easily...

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

Voiding the warranty of your phone is one thing, but on your car? What if it voids the insurance?

thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
That depends on the terms of the insurance. Does car insurance prevent car owners from doing their own maintenance or modifications? Does the car insurance require the car owner to only go to specific shops / dealerships for repairs?

fmntf 6y ago

That's unrealistic. A car contains several ECUs. Each ECU has one or more MCU/CPU. Every core runs its software, 99% of the time documentation is available only under NDA. Reimplementing the software for just one MCU/CPU is challenging even for who is part of the industry.

detaro 6y ago
If you wanted to go for "replace everything", sure. But that's not what you need for unlocking features and maybe some UI stuff. (I still suspect it won't be that common, but I'd assume it to be much more in line with other jailbreaking projects)
smolder 6y ago
There have been 3rd party ECUs for decades, "piggyback" fuel and spark controllers which take over functionality of the main ecu, devices to disable rev/speed limiters, custom transmission controllers, and so on. I wouldn't discount the aftermarket's ability to develop something that fulfills owners' needs. (Post-warranty)

m463 6y ago

I believe this will happen too. It might be happening now - there seem to be tesla folks who have messed with their cars. But it will be a struggle back and forth.