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I agree with your assessment of Google; however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build a

I agree with your assessment of Google; however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? You kinda have to go where the audience will be if you don't already have one and I'm not aware of any video discovery platforms with anywhere near the reach of YouTube. I've managed to get out of Google products almost entirely--YouTube remains the exception. Moreover, let's say a new site comes along and dethrones YouTube. Remember that this whole mess started because of lawsuits that were ultimately ruled (or settled) in favor of copyright holders. Any player in this space will need a method for handling vast quantities of copyrighted material scanning and, like Google, will be heavily incentivized by legal precedent to have that system "err on the side of caution." I'm not a fan of Google; but, the villain of this story is the horribly outdated and corporate-lobbied copyright system that will push any player in the video space to this kind of draconian approach.

ergot_vacation 5y ago
I'd disagree slightly with the parent post here: the conclusion shouldn't be "get away from Google" so much as "If you have to use Google, understand what you're getting into." If you deal with unsavory people, things will go south eventually. If you deal with Google, sooner or later things like this will happen. Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it.
- RogerL 5y ago
  How do you "build that into your strategy"? That is so easy to type, but unactionable. A piano teacher can't build her own streaming platform, and if she goes to a different platform she'll die in obscurity. Concretely, what should she have done differently?
  - piptastic 5y ago
    my thoughts would be: - while building up your following on google, market your brand to your own site(s) as much as possible - build brand an alternate streaming site(s) - have a way to reach your followers in the event you get shut down - email list, etc. to inform your followers to switch to the alternate site
    - matart 5y ago
      Do many people watch through embedded videos or do people watch in the YouTube app? There's a convenience in having all your videos in 1 place. I've had a couple podcasts move to Spotify only and I stopped listening even though I have a Spotify subscription.
  - zentiggr 5y ago
    It's that assumption of "dying in obscurity" that gives Google their damnable network effect. If there isn't enough marketing advice out there about finding as many channels and methods as you can, I'll eat this comment with barbecue sauce. Read up, utilize all the advice on everything except Google-owned properties, accept the lower visibility, and help neuter the algorithm beast. Or accept that you're riding the tiger and never complain again.
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      > If there isn't enough marketing advice out there about finding as many channels and methods as you can, I'll eat this comment with barbecue sauce. The advice is all there, all right. It's just that most of it is "join a platform that's NOT being used by literally everyone on the planet", which is not very effective when "literally everyone on your planet" is the "raw material" that you fish your viewers out of.
- ratsmack 5y ago
  >Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it. This is kind of like saying... Expect failure, build failure into you strategy, and move blindly forward believing there is no other alternative.
  - zentiggr 5y ago
    I'd say it's more like: Go ahead and build your initial business on quicksand. Know that you'll get lots of traffic, but it might sink into the ground at any time. Use the profits to build up a solid future property that isn't built on quicksand.
    - johnnyanmac 5y ago
      I'd say that accurately defines the entire entertainment spectrum in a nutshell. Content creator, game developer, asiring actor, etc. Problem is few make enough money to get to your last step. And those that do can pay others to deal with the quicksand and are no longer interested in the fight to clean it up for good.
- StreamBright 5y ago
  Explain this to my mom please. P50 users of the internet could not give two shits about these entities.
ineptech 5y ago
> what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator..? Insurance? I'm only half kidding. No individual youtuber has the deep pockets to stir the slumbering Googlebeast enough to get it to notice and correct its mistake, but all youtubers certainly do. Conversely, perhaps there's a market for a we-only-get-paid-if-we-win lawyers to spring up here, as they have with workplace injuries and such. Youtube's resolution process may not be friendly to creators, but juries probably will be, if the creator bypasses Google and sues the party making the claim. "Sues for what?" I dunno - emotional damages? Tortious claims? They'll figure something out, I imagine. Maybe those are silly ideas, but they're certainly less silly than waiting for Google to fix things...
- superkuh 5y ago
  Or join the youtube creators union https://fairtube.info/ https://fairtube.info/
fsflover 5y ago
> however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? Put your videos on Youtube and PeerTube.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  Does PeerTube have ads or monetization?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    No. But you can advertise something in your own videos as people often do nowadays.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      That is a lot harder to do, and only the most successful content creators will be able to find sponsors on their own. In addition, that is a lot of extra work for a small content creator.
      - zentiggr 5y ago
        ... or the small content creator gets a random permanent ban for "REASON WE CAN'T TELL YOU SO YOU CAN'T GAME US", and the easy road turns out to be a dead end. And you wind up doing the extra work anyway.
- bcrescimanno 5y ago
  I'd honestly never heard of PeerTube so I searched it. Ah, they have a "about peertube" video! Should be great! In the first 30 seconds of the video, there were 1-3s long hiccups 4 times. Not exactly a confidence-inspiring start. After figuring out how to find more videos, I tried to play some--but, experienced more hiccups or load times from 20s to a full minute--and some just flat out didn't play at all. I'm not saying PeerTube doesn't look like interesting tech; but this is clearly aimed at a far more tech-savvy crowd and to put it out there in response to asking for a, "reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience" is just totally missing the mark of what makes YouTube successful for creators and viewers alike.
StreamBright 5y ago
There are ways to avoid these copyright guys going after you with a truly decentralized system where node stores only a fraction of the content and there is no central place to ban content. Just like the concept of internet was DODs answer to a threat nuking communication there must be an answer to the threat of copyright trolling. I am very much waiting to a decentralized content platform to show up that is immune to content filtering abuse and much easier on the ISPs bandwidth wise than the current YT or similar sites.
ajross 5y ago
> however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? I think it's more instructive to look at it from the other side. What's the reasonable alternative for a video hosting service to doing this kind of policing? Remember it's not really an option to just throw video over the fence, DMCA requirements mean you have to be responsive. And thus there's a built-in incentive to cut a deal with the content owners to preemptively prevent the DMCA claims (which are expensive!) by doing this sort of automated policing. It's true that not every host does this, but every host that doesn't do this either does it in violation of the law or eats significant overhead that needs to be recouped in some other way (i.e. by paying their content creators less! Check the author's channel, this is someone who's clearly on youtube for revenue. Would even she jump ship given that it would probably cost her money?) Really, this isn't something Google can fix. It's a problem with the legal regime that imagines that all infringement is a bright line definition and that preemptive takedowns are the best solution.
- burkaman 5y ago
  The alternative is to responsibly scale your service. If your platform is so big that it can only be moderated by algorithms, and the algorithms don't work, then it's too big. Scale down until, at the very least, you can hire enough humans to review complaints when the algorithm does something wrong. Even better would be to have a human review every flagged violation to confirm it. Obviously, hiring humans is expensive, and nobody is forcing them to do it, but that doesn't make it an unreasonable alternative. I consider it unreasonable to design an unethical system with the sole excuse that it makes more money that way.
  - ajross 5y ago
    So... which providers have responsibly scaled, in your opinion? All we have are tiny hosts (mostly porn) running by the seat of their pants and occasionally disappearing in a conflagration of lawsuits, and big folks like TikTok and Google and Facebook with draconian preemptive enforcement of various forms. I think that argues strongly that the service you want to see is "unreasonable" given the regulation regime we have. You can't put this on the hosts, you'll just be disappointed. Call your representative.
feudalism 5y ago
> what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? I've noticed several tech-related content producers copying their videos over to LBRY/Odysee as a backup in case the YT algorithm decides to cancel them.
- bcrescimanno 5y ago
  These are great solutions to keep your content if Google decides to lock you out or destroy your content; but, they aren't platforms on which you can build a content creation side of a business.
fossuser 5y ago
Yeah - agreed. If I was a creator I’d use YouTube, but also have backed up local copies of videos. Preferably hosted elsewhere in case the channel gets in trouble too. You have to be where the users are and YouTube is by far the best video streaming service (with the largest audience).

ergot_vacation 5y ago

I'd disagree slightly with the parent post here: the conclusion shouldn't be "get away from Google" so much as "If you have to use Google, understand what you're getting into." If you deal with unsavory people, things will go south eventually. If you deal with Google, sooner or later things like this will happen. Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it.

RogerL 5y ago
How do you "build that into your strategy"? That is so easy to type, but unactionable. A piano teacher can't build her own streaming platform, and if she goes to a different platform she'll die in obscurity. Concretely, what should she have done differently?
- piptastic 5y ago
  my thoughts would be: - while building up your following on google, market your brand to your own site(s) as much as possible - build brand an alternate streaming site(s) - have a way to reach your followers in the event you get shut down - email list, etc. to inform your followers to switch to the alternate site
  - matart 5y ago
    Do many people watch through embedded videos or do people watch in the YouTube app? There's a convenience in having all your videos in 1 place. I've had a couple podcasts move to Spotify only and I stopped listening even though I have a Spotify subscription.
- zentiggr 5y ago
  It's that assumption of "dying in obscurity" that gives Google their damnable network effect. If there isn't enough marketing advice out there about finding as many channels and methods as you can, I'll eat this comment with barbecue sauce. Read up, utilize all the advice on everything except Google-owned properties, accept the lower visibility, and help neuter the algorithm beast. Or accept that you're riding the tiger and never complain again.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    > If there isn't enough marketing advice out there about finding as many channels and methods as you can, I'll eat this comment with barbecue sauce. The advice is all there, all right. It's just that most of it is "join a platform that's NOT being used by literally everyone on the planet", which is not very effective when "literally everyone on your planet" is the "raw material" that you fish your viewers out of.
ratsmack 5y ago
>Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it. This is kind of like saying... Expect failure, build failure into you strategy, and move blindly forward believing there is no other alternative.
- zentiggr 5y ago
  I'd say it's more like: Go ahead and build your initial business on quicksand. Know that you'll get lots of traffic, but it might sink into the ground at any time. Use the profits to build up a solid future property that isn't built on quicksand.
  - johnnyanmac 5y ago
    I'd say that accurately defines the entire entertainment spectrum in a nutshell. Content creator, game developer, asiring actor, etc. Problem is few make enough money to get to your last step. And those that do can pay others to deal with the quicksand and are no longer interested in the fight to clean it up for good.
StreamBright 5y ago
Explain this to my mom please. P50 users of the internet could not give two shits about these entities.

ineptech 5y ago

> what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator..? Insurance? I'm only half kidding. No individual youtuber has the deep pockets to stir the slumbering Googlebeast enough to get it to notice and correct its mistake, but all youtubers certainly do. Conversely, perhaps there's a market for a we-only-get-paid-if-we-win lawyers to spring up here, as they have with workplace injuries and such. Youtube's resolution process may not be friendly to creators, but juries probably will be, if the creator bypasses Google and sues the party making the claim. "Sues for what?" I dunno - emotional damages? Tortious claims? They'll figure something out, I imagine. Maybe those are silly ideas, but they're certainly less silly than waiting for Google to fix things...

superkuh 5y ago
Or join the youtube creators union https://fairtube.info/ https://fairtube.info/

fsflover 5y ago

> however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? Put your videos on Youtube and PeerTube.

cortesoft 5y ago
Does PeerTube have ads or monetization?
- fsflover 5y ago
  No. But you can advertise something in your own videos as people often do nowadays.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    That is a lot harder to do, and only the most successful content creators will be able to find sponsors on their own. In addition, that is a lot of extra work for a small content creator.
    - zentiggr 5y ago
      ... or the small content creator gets a random permanent ban for "REASON WE CAN'T TELL YOU SO YOU CAN'T GAME US", and the easy road turns out to be a dead end. And you wind up doing the extra work anyway.
bcrescimanno 5y ago
I'd honestly never heard of PeerTube so I searched it. Ah, they have a "about peertube" video! Should be great! In the first 30 seconds of the video, there were 1-3s long hiccups 4 times. Not exactly a confidence-inspiring start. After figuring out how to find more videos, I tried to play some--but, experienced more hiccups or load times from 20s to a full minute--and some just flat out didn't play at all. I'm not saying PeerTube doesn't look like interesting tech; but this is clearly aimed at a far more tech-savvy crowd and to put it out there in response to asking for a, "reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience" is just totally missing the mark of what makes YouTube successful for creators and viewers alike.

StreamBright 5y ago

There are ways to avoid these copyright guys going after you with a truly decentralized system where node stores only a fraction of the content and there is no central place to ban content. Just like the concept of internet was DODs answer to a threat nuking communication there must be an answer to the threat of copyright trolling. I am very much waiting to a decentralized content platform to show up that is immune to content filtering abuse and much easier on the ISPs bandwidth wise than the current YT or similar sites.

ajross 5y ago

> however, what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? I think it's more instructive to look at it from the other side. What's the reasonable alternative for a video hosting service to doing this kind of policing? Remember it's not really an option to just throw video over the fence, DMCA requirements mean you have to be responsive. And thus there's a built-in incentive to cut a deal with the content owners to preemptively prevent the DMCA claims (which are expensive!) by doing this sort of automated policing. It's true that not every host does this, but every host that doesn't do this either does it in violation of the law or eats significant overhead that needs to be recouped in some other way (i.e. by paying their content creators less! Check the author's channel, this is someone who's clearly on youtube for revenue. Would even she jump ship given that it would probably cost her money?) Really, this isn't something Google can fix. It's a problem with the legal regime that imagines that all infringement is a bright line definition and that preemptive takedowns are the best solution.

burkaman 5y ago
The alternative is to responsibly scale your service. If your platform is so big that it can only be moderated by algorithms, and the algorithms don't work, then it's too big. Scale down until, at the very least, you can hire enough humans to review complaints when the algorithm does something wrong. Even better would be to have a human review every flagged violation to confirm it. Obviously, hiring humans is expensive, and nobody is forcing them to do it, but that doesn't make it an unreasonable alternative. I consider it unreasonable to design an unethical system with the sole excuse that it makes more money that way.
- ajross 5y ago
  So... which providers have responsibly scaled, in your opinion? All we have are tiny hosts (mostly porn) running by the seat of their pants and occasionally disappearing in a conflagration of lawsuits, and big folks like TikTok and Google and Facebook with draconian preemptive enforcement of various forms. I think that argues strongly that the service you want to see is "unreasonable" given the regulation regime we have. You can't put this on the hosts, you'll just be disappointed. Call your representative.

feudalism 5y ago

> what is a reasonable alternative for a content creator who wants to publish their videos and be able to build an audience? I've noticed several tech-related content producers copying their videos over to LBRY/Odysee as a backup in case the YT algorithm decides to cancel them.

bcrescimanno 5y ago
These are great solutions to keep your content if Google decides to lock you out or destroy your content; but, they aren't platforms on which you can build a content creation side of a business.

fossuser 5y ago

Yeah - agreed. If I was a creator I’d use YouTube, but also have backed up local copies of videos. Preferably hosted elsewhere in case the channel gets in trouble too. You have to be where the users are and YouTube is by far the best video streaming service (with the largest audience).