4 ms·

"Existence in this country" is completely different from "existence," even if the two ideas happen to share a word.

joshuamorton 6y ago
Not really if you're limited to talking about a particular country. Like I guess you could argue it's the difference between ethnic cleansing internally and invading a neighbor to engage in ethnic cleansing, but that's sort of not a hugely important distinction.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  I think they're arguing the distinction between "I'm not allowed to live in the u.s. so I have to live somewhere else" and "I'm not allowed to live because I shot in front of a firing squad". Which would seem like a very important distinction if it was my existence.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Does that distinction really matter if you're already here in the US? Where else do you go?
    - JamesBarney 6y ago
      I'm trying to argue in good faith but you're literally asking does the distinction being having to move and being murdered matter.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        To move where? This thread was in part, but not solely, about undocumented immigrants, and sure maybe they have a place they can legally be sent to. But the same argument has been used for racial separation ("No, we don't want to subjugate black people, we just want to have a white ethnostate where the black people will be forced to move". The part not said aloud of of course, being what happens if someone wishes to stay where they have lived their whole life). So yes, I think the distinction between "will be kicked out by force" or "will simply be shot in the street" can be a lot more tenuous than you're suggesting. But even still, if we're discussing any group that isn't undocumented immigrants (or even potentially citizens whom the president wanted to strip that right from) the question of "where do they go" becomes even more important, because there usually isn't a place they can go.
        rayiner 6y ago
        Do you seriously not understand the distinction between racial segregation and enforcing immigration laws or do you just not believe in nation states?
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        I'm unclear on what exactly you mean by nation states. That term usually implies a cohesive culture shared by the population, and as such is more normally applied to smaller ethnically homogenous nations (think Spain or Japan or South Korea) and not a large ethnically and racially diverse nation liked the US. In fact the US (with it's vastly different culture and racial makeup between say Hawaii and Nebraska and Georgia) is usually the prime example of a country that isn't a nation state. I think what you're actually asking is if I feel that it is just to enforce immigration laws on people already in the country, and generally speaking no, I don't think deportation is a just punishment for trying to be a productive member of society but overstaying a visa or similar.
        rayiner 6y ago
        You’re mixing up nation states and ethnostates. The US is a nation state and like every other nation it gets to decide who is allowed to take up residence there. The fact it’s not an ethnostate just means it doesn’t make those decisions in order to preserve an existing ethnic homogeneity. That doesn’t deprive it of the right to decide on what terms foreigners get to live there. Deportation isn’t a “punishment.” It’s restoration of the status quo ante in response to someone entering illegally. If you build a house on someone else’s land, they can force you to tear it down. That’s not a punishment, it’s just undoing the effect of the illegal act.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        > You’re mixing up nation states and ethnostates. I'm not, using common definitions. They just happen to usually be the same because culture and ethnicity are often very tightly coupled. The factors you're talking about (border sovereignty and determination of citizenship/residency) are all related to being a "state" and have relatively little to do with being a nation, which is just a shared culture. A nation state is the term for a state, the political entirely, whose population shares a broadly homogenous culture. If you choose to define the US as a nation-state, then it blunts the "nation" portion to the point of redundancy, as the culture of sharing a government is enough to define a nation. Do a bit of research here and at a minimum you'll find that the US being a nation state is widely disputed. But we can agree to disagree because again, everything you're talking about is political determination related to statehood. Nation is irrelevant. > Deportation isn’t a “punishment.” It’s restoration of the status quo ante in response to someone entering illegally This is weak semantics. A goal of retribution is not a requirement for some act to be a punishment. It is simply "the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable". Defacto it is a punishment. But this again doesn't matter even if you choose to find it not a punishment, it is still unjust. It may also be a return to the status quo, but so too is, for example, returning someone to prison for a parole violation, and I think you'd be hard pressed to define that as anything but a punishment. > If you build a house on someone else’s land, they can force you to tear it down. I'm dubious of this. You likely could not compel me to tear it down. You could sue to cover the costs, but if I had no money there are limits on what you could do. I'm contending that deportation is similar. It, at a minimum, is not a just way to "restore the status quo".
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > Where else do you go? The country of which you’re a citizen and where you’re legally allowed to reside?
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        Where should a trans US citizen with no other legal residency go? Their ability to live safely is coupled fully to their ability to live safely in the us. Immigration was one, but not the only, example GP mentioned.
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        Has there been any serious discussion around kicking trans people out of America? I haven't seen any.
        detaro 6y ago
        Clearly they mean around the "live safely" part.
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        Transgender people are about as safe as anyone else in the u.s.
        pell 6y ago
        Trans people are a group that isn't as safe as others: https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-trans-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2020 https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-trans-and...
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        44 transgender people killed last year. 19,000 people killed last year 0.6% of the population is trans according to wikipedia. So we should expect 114 trans murder victims if they had the same rate of being a victim of homicide at the standard population Looks like they're safer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202017%20Gallup%20poll%20concluded,U.S.%20adults%20identify%20as%20transgender https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Uni.... Also I said about as safe. Your risk of being involved in a homicide is ~1%. You'd need to be at a much higher risk of being killed before this impacts your overall safety.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    Where would you go if you were deported? If I were deported, my life as I knew it would effectively be over. Family, friends, job, all gone. It's not the same as being dead, but it's analogous to being imprisoned or incapacitated.
darkerside 6y ago
I disagree. If you are deported to a country which you may not speak the language, have no known relation, and be completely unable to support yourself, your life is effectively over. You can rebuild a new life from scratch, but depending on how you define existence, I think it's reasonable to say your old life no longer exists. Conversely, you could say you still exist after you die, because the master that made up your body hasn't exited the closed system of the universe. To make it for home a little more, I'll ask, where would you go if you got deported?

Not really if you're limited to talking about a particular country. Like I guess you could argue it's the difference between ethnic cleansing internally and invading a neighbor to engage in ethnic cleansing, but that's sort of not a hugely important distinction.

JamesBarney 6y ago
I think they're arguing the distinction between "I'm not allowed to live in the u.s. so I have to live somewhere else" and "I'm not allowed to live because I shot in front of a firing squad". Which would seem like a very important distinction if it was my existence.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  Does that distinction really matter if you're already here in the US? Where else do you go?
  - JamesBarney 6y ago
    I'm trying to argue in good faith but you're literally asking does the distinction being having to move and being murdered matter.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      To move where? This thread was in part, but not solely, about undocumented immigrants, and sure maybe they have a place they can legally be sent to. But the same argument has been used for racial separation ("No, we don't want to subjugate black people, we just want to have a white ethnostate where the black people will be forced to move". The part not said aloud of of course, being what happens if someone wishes to stay where they have lived their whole life). So yes, I think the distinction between "will be kicked out by force" or "will simply be shot in the street" can be a lot more tenuous than you're suggesting. But even still, if we're discussing any group that isn't undocumented immigrants (or even potentially citizens whom the president wanted to strip that right from) the question of "where do they go" becomes even more important, because there usually isn't a place they can go.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Do you seriously not understand the distinction between racial segregation and enforcing immigration laws or do you just not believe in nation states?
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        I'm unclear on what exactly you mean by nation states. That term usually implies a cohesive culture shared by the population, and as such is more normally applied to smaller ethnically homogenous nations (think Spain or Japan or South Korea) and not a large ethnically and racially diverse nation liked the US. In fact the US (with it's vastly different culture and racial makeup between say Hawaii and Nebraska and Georgia) is usually the prime example of a country that isn't a nation state. I think what you're actually asking is if I feel that it is just to enforce immigration laws on people already in the country, and generally speaking no, I don't think deportation is a just punishment for trying to be a productive member of society but overstaying a visa or similar.
        rayiner 6y ago
        You’re mixing up nation states and ethnostates. The US is a nation state and like every other nation it gets to decide who is allowed to take up residence there. The fact it’s not an ethnostate just means it doesn’t make those decisions in order to preserve an existing ethnic homogeneity. That doesn’t deprive it of the right to decide on what terms foreigners get to live there. Deportation isn’t a “punishment.” It’s restoration of the status quo ante in response to someone entering illegally. If you build a house on someone else’s land, they can force you to tear it down. That’s not a punishment, it’s just undoing the effect of the illegal act.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        > You’re mixing up nation states and ethnostates. I'm not, using common definitions. They just happen to usually be the same because culture and ethnicity are often very tightly coupled. The factors you're talking about (border sovereignty and determination of citizenship/residency) are all related to being a "state" and have relatively little to do with being a nation, which is just a shared culture. A nation state is the term for a state, the political entirely, whose population shares a broadly homogenous culture. If you choose to define the US as a nation-state, then it blunts the "nation" portion to the point of redundancy, as the culture of sharing a government is enough to define a nation. Do a bit of research here and at a minimum you'll find that the US being a nation state is widely disputed. But we can agree to disagree because again, everything you're talking about is political determination related to statehood. Nation is irrelevant. > Deportation isn’t a “punishment.” It’s restoration of the status quo ante in response to someone entering illegally This is weak semantics. A goal of retribution is not a requirement for some act to be a punishment. It is simply "the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable". Defacto it is a punishment. But this again doesn't matter even if you choose to find it not a punishment, it is still unjust. It may also be a return to the status quo, but so too is, for example, returning someone to prison for a parole violation, and I think you'd be hard pressed to define that as anything but a punishment. > If you build a house on someone else’s land, they can force you to tear it down. I'm dubious of this. You likely could not compel me to tear it down. You could sue to cover the costs, but if I had no money there are limits on what you could do. I'm contending that deportation is similar. It, at a minimum, is not a just way to "restore the status quo".
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > Where else do you go? The country of which you’re a citizen and where you’re legally allowed to reside?
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      Where should a trans US citizen with no other legal residency go? Their ability to live safely is coupled fully to their ability to live safely in the us. Immigration was one, but not the only, example GP mentioned.
      - JamesBarney 6y ago
        Has there been any serious discussion around kicking trans people out of America? I haven't seen any.
        detaro 6y ago
        Clearly they mean around the "live safely" part.
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        Transgender people are about as safe as anyone else in the u.s.
        pell 6y ago
        Trans people are a group that isn't as safe as others: https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-trans-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2020 https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-trans-and...
        JamesBarney 6y ago
        44 transgender people killed last year. 19,000 people killed last year 0.6% of the population is trans according to wikipedia. So we should expect 114 trans murder victims if they had the same rate of being a victim of homicide at the standard population Looks like they're safer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202017%20Gallup%20poll%20concluded,U.S.%20adults%20identify%20as%20transgender https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Uni.... Also I said about as safe. Your risk of being involved in a homicide is ~1%. You'd need to be at a much higher risk of being killed before this impacts your overall safety.
- darkerside 6y ago
  Where would you go if you were deported? If I were deported, my life as I knew it would effectively be over. Family, friends, job, all gone. It's not the same as being dead, but it's analogous to being imprisoned or incapacitated.

darkerside 6y ago

I disagree. If you are deported to a country which you may not speak the language, have no known relation, and be completely unable to support yourself, your life is effectively over. You can rebuild a new life from scratch, but depending on how you define existence, I think it's reasonable to say your old life no longer exists. Conversely, you could say you still exist after you die, because the master that made up your body hasn't exited the closed system of the universe. To make it for home a little more, I'll ask, where would you go if you got deported?