6 ms·

I see more and more of these posted here on HN. There is a question i would like to ask those from HN who think there is some kind of "alien" technology involv

by sai_c 5y ago

I see more and more of these posted here on HN. There is a question i would like to ask those from HN who think there is some kind of "alien" technology involved. Let's, for the sake of the argument, just assume there is a more intelligent species present on earth (no matter if extraterrestrial or - dimensional). And let's assume "they" have been watching us for centuries (as suggested in some stories). So, even if this were true (which i don't believe for a second), why should we (as in mere mortals and scientific community) care in the first place? Because, obviously, there seems to be no way we could understand the technology (it seems our physics fundamentally disagrees with the alleged observed properties of the objects. So if the smartest persons from the physics community say they have would have no clue as to how those could work on a theoretical level, then our brains our probably far too primitive). Furthermore, this would mean there is a highly advanced species present on earth for ages, watching "monkeys" for centuries. Seems hard to make sense from. I can definitively see why the government would/should care (i.e. avoid conflict or accidents), but mere mortals like myself? Enlighten me :-).

MrMan 5y ago
I am not arguing your point but offer an interesting cliche instead - we are the aliens, already so why does it seem so unlikely (a priori) that others are also the aliens?
- krapp 5y ago
  It doesn't seem at all unlikely that extraterrestrial life exists, but given the vast size of the observable universe and the limitations imposed by known physics, it seems very unlikely that any of that extraterrestrial life is here.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    "imposed by known physics" I've heard a physicist say that we do know a lot about what's possible physically and that isn't going to change with more knowledge. Is that really true or just short sighted hubris? If we don't go extinct and keep progressing for 500,000 (or 50,000,000) more years, are we confident that we aren't going to get FTL travel? The answer to this question seems to bear a lot on the probability of alien visitation.
    - krapp 5y ago
      It can't simply be short sighted hubris since the value of the speed of light as a constant derives from Maxwell's equations, and the relationship between mass, energy and the speed of light come from relativity, and that's a lot of science to have been wrong about all along. If FTL is possible, it's possible in a universe that has all of the properties of one in which it is impossible, where the math which most accurately describes it says it's impossible, where all of our experiments validate it to be impossible, and all of our technology that depends on those models (such as GPS satellites, which have to take relativistic time dilation into account to remain synchronized) still works. That doesn't seem likely. Also, there's the matter of the Fermi Paradox. The lack of any evidence of widespread interstellar colonization suggests that FTL isn't possible.
      - fighterpilot 5y ago
        > It can't simply be short sighted hubris What about warp drive tech, are we reasonably confident that that won't be possible in 50 million years? Also, what about travel through wormholes. If an advanced civilization sent probes out 2 billion years ago that travelled at 0.5*c and created wormholes, couldn't they feasibly now travel FTL in a 1 billion light year radius? > Also, there's the matter of the Fermi Paradox. Right, but we're talking about whether some UFOs are actually alien visitations. For the people that think that, they believe the Fermi Paradox isn't really a paradox because aliens are already here.
        krapp 5y ago
        The problem with warp drives and wormholes is that so far they only exist on paper and require things like negative mass and exotic matter or an entire Jupiter's worth of mass energy to even theoretically be feasible. Even then, there are some models which suggest neither would actually work for FTL travel anyway. If you want to stick to we can actually prove, wormholes don't exist, and neither does negative mass or exotic matter, and we have absolutely no idea how to actually create a "warp bubble," like none. Otherwise you could just as well invoke divine intervention or simulation theory. Although that would make for an interesting sci-fi story. It turns out the secret to FTL travel is discovering the universe is a simulation and hacking it, and the solution to the Fermi Paradox is being caught by the universe's AV software. It isn't hubris to doubt when all of the available evidence points in that direction, it's hubris to dismiss all evidence to the contrary and assume that all scientists and skeptics are simply short-sighted when all you have to contradict them is a low-resolution, blurry photo or video of some dots in the sky.
fighterpilot 5y ago
"Why should we care?" Burning curiosity. It ranks #1 on my list of unsatisfied curiosities. "Seems hard to make sense from." Not sure what I think if this argument. It entails a level of anthropomorphic attribution of human motives and modes of operation.
milgrim 5y ago
You really wouldn't want to know, whether there are superintelligent beings here that are watching us, or not? And do you really think, that we wouldn't put a LOT of effort into researching another inhabited planet if we had the opportunity to do so completely undetected?
postalrat 5y ago
Because science is based on observation. Even though we initially won't understand how their technology works we will know more about what is possible. This information will allow us to ask better questions and over time learn more about our universe. I used to work as a developer in the point of sale industry. We needed to print small 1/2 inch labels from an Epson impact printer. At first I didn't think it was possible but then saw one of our competitors were already printing them. Seeing it happen not only told me it was possible but gave me clues how to do it.
- sai_c 5y ago
  Same question as to another poster. What if we are, by definition, not smart enough to ever understand those new physics. If we humans simply aren't that smart?
  - dkarras 5y ago
    If that is the case, then that is that. You won't know without trying though.
  - throwaway316943 5y ago
    If you could devise an experiment that would definitively prove or disprove the existence of God, but could not tell you if there was an afterlife or which religion is correct, would you run it? Would you expect no one to want to? Would it have a profound effect on your life or the way you think if you did?
meowface 5y ago
I'm not one of the people you're addressing (I think there's almost zero chance ETs have ever been anywhere near Earth), but - are you kidding me?! Even the knowledge that any other life exists in the universe would be worth very deeply caring about. And then orders of magnitude more for intelligent life. Intelligent life that visited us??? It'd be all I'd think about every hour of every day for the next few decades. I'd go so far as to say there may be nothing worth caring about more than this. I don't know how someone couldn't care about it. That's why there's been so much interest and discussion around it since the 40s.
- sai_c 5y ago
  Okay i see. But how would it change your life? How long would you be excited?
  - meowface 5y ago
    >How long would you be excited? Probably for at least a century. (If I lived that long.) I imagine when, for example, people living on small islands or other isolated places first encountered people from other places, they remained excited (and/or anxious) about that fact for the rest of their lives. And this would be greatly multiplied because the differences and advances would be much more stark. >But how would it change your life? Depends. Do they leave us any of their technology? Then probably all of our lives would drastically change forever. Do they consider us a threat and imprison us or blow up the planet? That'd probably also be a bit of a shake-up. Otherwise, I'd probably consider switching careers to "non-human intelligent life communication studies" or other ET research or something like that. And I'd probably spend all day every day talking about it with friends and strangers, and maybe some of the ETs as well if they want to and can talk to people like me. I'd probably also start thinking about programming projects, or anything else I could offer, that could somehow help bridge the gap between our civilizations and increase the chance of a mutually beneficial and peaceful relationship. I mean, I could ramble on about this for hours. But it's basically like asking me "why would you care if you found out some omnipotent deity exists? how would your life change? how long would you be excited for?" Same for "why would you care if you found out you live in a simulation?" For one, there are way too many unknown unknowns there, so it's hard to imagine exactly how I might react. There are a lot of different ways those scenarios could play out. Secondly, it's likely impossible or nearly impossible to ever know the truth about any of these things. And thirdly, it's just such a crazy hypothetical because I personally think the odds are extremely low that there are deities or that we live in a simulation or that ETs have visited or will ever visit us. So it's a bit moot to think too much about. I think a better question to ask of the UFO researchers/ET visitation believers is why they seem to care so much when it seems very likely it's all so futile and just simply a big nothingburger. (I suppose most of them would just respond by saying they don't think it's futile or even that they're completely certain it's real.) I get not caring given the status quo. But not caring if you and every other human on Earth hypothetically is shown undeniable proof and now knows with 100% confidence that there are ETs/deities/a simulation? That sounds pretty crazy to me. How could you not care? It'd be by far the most important and interesting thing in all of human history. And then if you consider what new things might be enabled for us with that contact or knowledge, it'd quite possibly be the most important thing to ever happen for all of future human history; even millions of years into the future.
polytely 5y ago
I think it is improbable that there are currently aliens walking among us, but these sightings seem to keep happening and keep getting suppressed because people are afraid to look silly. The whole point of the article is that you shouldn't ignore weird things but investigate them (preferably while keeping the kooks out of it)
yummypaint 5y ago
Remember that our ancestors living in caves during the bronze age were our mental equals. It took people untold millenia to create fire rather than just maintain it. It took a thousand years to go from bronze to steel. It took less than half a century to go from the beginning of quantum theory to a working nuclear reactor. People are still stupid, but our technological growth continues to be truly exponential. We already rightfully put research money into all kinds of interesting areas simply because they are interesting. You can thank exactly this kind of work for making development of the covid vaccine possible. In fact i would assert that essentially all major tech developments in the last century benefeitted from or required input from basic research. It's worth investigating these things because we don't understand them, full stop.
- sai_c 5y ago
  How many people live in poverty, sickness and war in this day and age despite all scientific progress. Also, how many have no hope for the better ever, despite scientific progress. How many of those people will get the vaccine you mentioned. I talk about "mere mortals ", not privileged people from the western world.
  - 7thaccount 5y ago
    I think many would argue things have gotten much better for a majority of the world's population. We still have a ways to grow as a society though.
j7ake 5y ago
Every scientist in the world would be interested in knowing this question. It would create entire fields of inquiry with lifetimes worth of questions to ask. Being able to observe and study phenomenon that defies known physics would completely energize the field of physics.
- sai_c 5y ago
  I said "mere mortals " in my initial post. Scientists are not mere mortals. Me, the little not-scientist is ;-).
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Have you known any scientists? I think you're attributing waaay more ability to them than is realistic. Scientists really aren't any different from any other trained professional.
nscalf 5y ago
Why should we care if there is something fundamentally different about the world? Why do we go to school then, or why do we even bother publishing non-fictions? Your argument here is that we wouldn’t understand it at first anyway. This is a very strange anti-intellectual stance to take. If this were real, you should care because it would likely lead to a period of explosive growth for technology and science, and that directly impacts your life.
- sai_c 5y ago
  Anti-intellectual? Oh come on. I didn't talk about things we don't understand at first, but about never ever. Simply because we might not be capable of that. You seem to think we humans are so smart, that we can understand everything given enough time. I think we maybe aren't THAT smart. Furthermore, I think the thought that new technology makes the life of mere mortals better, is just that. A thought. We have so much technology today, yet most people on earth are poor, sick and just miserable. Without any hope for the better. I think your viewpoint is from a privileged point. The life of mere mortals (see my initial post) might not change at all. So why bother?
  - mojomark 5y ago
    How would you know for certain that our (human) capacity to ever understand an idea or technology of some higher intellect is eternally insufficient? Deriving the proof of that impossibility (1) would be a very worthwhile pursuit in and of itself. Even if found, we can always adapt ourselves to exceed the observed bounds of pur intellectual capacity. Computers are one good example of how we've already started to adapt. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility
  - nscalf 5y ago
    To reject the idea of discovery because we may not be able to understand it is absolutely anti-intellectual. Sure, maybe we can't fully understand it, but to just throw that out there with virtually no evidence other than "maybe it'd be complicated" is ridiculous. Technology has undoubtably made the world a much better place, your statement does not reflect reality. Rates of extreme poverty are at the lowest ever and dropping, hunger is decreasing across most of the world, life expectancy is rising, child mortality is dropping, homicide rates are massively down, education time is increasing and literacy rates are quickly approaching 100%. I know it's really popular to fetishize every little thing that is bad about the world, but to say technology increasing the quality of life is anything other than fact is ridiculous. Go tell all the scientists who predicted massive starvation due to food shortages that the Haber Method doesn't make peoples lives better.

by sai_c 5y ago

MrMan 5y ago

I am not arguing your point but offer an interesting cliche instead - we are the aliens, already so why does it seem so unlikely (a priori) that others are also the aliens?

krapp 5y ago
It doesn't seem at all unlikely that extraterrestrial life exists, but given the vast size of the observable universe and the limitations imposed by known physics, it seems very unlikely that any of that extraterrestrial life is here.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  "imposed by known physics" I've heard a physicist say that we do know a lot about what's possible physically and that isn't going to change with more knowledge. Is that really true or just short sighted hubris? If we don't go extinct and keep progressing for 500,000 (or 50,000,000) more years, are we confident that we aren't going to get FTL travel? The answer to this question seems to bear a lot on the probability of alien visitation.
  - krapp 5y ago
    It can't simply be short sighted hubris since the value of the speed of light as a constant derives from Maxwell's equations, and the relationship between mass, energy and the speed of light come from relativity, and that's a lot of science to have been wrong about all along. If FTL is possible, it's possible in a universe that has all of the properties of one in which it is impossible, where the math which most accurately describes it says it's impossible, where all of our experiments validate it to be impossible, and all of our technology that depends on those models (such as GPS satellites, which have to take relativistic time dilation into account to remain synchronized) still works. That doesn't seem likely. Also, there's the matter of the Fermi Paradox. The lack of any evidence of widespread interstellar colonization suggests that FTL isn't possible.
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      > It can't simply be short sighted hubris What about warp drive tech, are we reasonably confident that that won't be possible in 50 million years? Also, what about travel through wormholes. If an advanced civilization sent probes out 2 billion years ago that travelled at 0.5*c and created wormholes, couldn't they feasibly now travel FTL in a 1 billion light year radius? > Also, there's the matter of the Fermi Paradox. Right, but we're talking about whether some UFOs are actually alien visitations. For the people that think that, they believe the Fermi Paradox isn't really a paradox because aliens are already here.
      - krapp 5y ago
        The problem with warp drives and wormholes is that so far they only exist on paper and require things like negative mass and exotic matter or an entire Jupiter's worth of mass energy to even theoretically be feasible. Even then, there are some models which suggest neither would actually work for FTL travel anyway. If you want to stick to we can actually prove, wormholes don't exist, and neither does negative mass or exotic matter, and we have absolutely no idea how to actually create a "warp bubble," like none. Otherwise you could just as well invoke divine intervention or simulation theory. Although that would make for an interesting sci-fi story. It turns out the secret to FTL travel is discovering the universe is a simulation and hacking it, and the solution to the Fermi Paradox is being caught by the universe's AV software. It isn't hubris to doubt when all of the available evidence points in that direction, it's hubris to dismiss all evidence to the contrary and assume that all scientists and skeptics are simply short-sighted when all you have to contradict them is a low-resolution, blurry photo or video of some dots in the sky.

fighterpilot 5y ago

"Why should we care?" Burning curiosity. It ranks #1 on my list of unsatisfied curiosities. "Seems hard to make sense from." Not sure what I think if this argument. It entails a level of anthropomorphic attribution of human motives and modes of operation.

milgrim 5y ago

You really wouldn't want to know, whether there are superintelligent beings here that are watching us, or not? And do you really think, that we wouldn't put a LOT of effort into researching another inhabited planet if we had the opportunity to do so completely undetected?

postalrat 5y ago

Because science is based on observation. Even though we initially won't understand how their technology works we will know more about what is possible. This information will allow us to ask better questions and over time learn more about our universe. I used to work as a developer in the point of sale industry. We needed to print small 1/2 inch labels from an Epson impact printer. At first I didn't think it was possible but then saw one of our competitors were already printing them. Seeing it happen not only told me it was possible but gave me clues how to do it.

sai_c 5y ago
Same question as to another poster. What if we are, by definition, not smart enough to ever understand those new physics. If we humans simply aren't that smart?
- dkarras 5y ago
  If that is the case, then that is that. You won't know without trying though.
- throwaway316943 5y ago
  If you could devise an experiment that would definitively prove or disprove the existence of God, but could not tell you if there was an afterlife or which religion is correct, would you run it? Would you expect no one to want to? Would it have a profound effect on your life or the way you think if you did?

meowface 5y ago

I'm not one of the people you're addressing (I think there's almost zero chance ETs have ever been anywhere near Earth), but - are you kidding me?! Even the knowledge that any other life exists in the universe would be worth very deeply caring about. And then orders of magnitude more for intelligent life. Intelligent life that visited us??? It'd be all I'd think about every hour of every day for the next few decades. I'd go so far as to say there may be nothing worth caring about more than this. I don't know how someone couldn't care about it. That's why there's been so much interest and discussion around it since the 40s.

sai_c 5y ago
Okay i see. But how would it change your life? How long would you be excited?
- meowface 5y ago
  >How long would you be excited? Probably for at least a century. (If I lived that long.) I imagine when, for example, people living on small islands or other isolated places first encountered people from other places, they remained excited (and/or anxious) about that fact for the rest of their lives. And this would be greatly multiplied because the differences and advances would be much more stark. >But how would it change your life? Depends. Do they leave us any of their technology? Then probably all of our lives would drastically change forever. Do they consider us a threat and imprison us or blow up the planet? That'd probably also be a bit of a shake-up. Otherwise, I'd probably consider switching careers to "non-human intelligent life communication studies" or other ET research or something like that. And I'd probably spend all day every day talking about it with friends and strangers, and maybe some of the ETs as well if they want to and can talk to people like me. I'd probably also start thinking about programming projects, or anything else I could offer, that could somehow help bridge the gap between our civilizations and increase the chance of a mutually beneficial and peaceful relationship. I mean, I could ramble on about this for hours. But it's basically like asking me "why would you care if you found out some omnipotent deity exists? how would your life change? how long would you be excited for?" Same for "why would you care if you found out you live in a simulation?" For one, there are way too many unknown unknowns there, so it's hard to imagine exactly how I might react. There are a lot of different ways those scenarios could play out. Secondly, it's likely impossible or nearly impossible to ever know the truth about any of these things. And thirdly, it's just such a crazy hypothetical because I personally think the odds are extremely low that there are deities or that we live in a simulation or that ETs have visited or will ever visit us. So it's a bit moot to think too much about. I think a better question to ask of the UFO researchers/ET visitation believers is why they seem to care so much when it seems very likely it's all so futile and just simply a big nothingburger. (I suppose most of them would just respond by saying they don't think it's futile or even that they're completely certain it's real.) I get not caring given the status quo. But not caring if you and every other human on Earth hypothetically is shown undeniable proof and now knows with 100% confidence that there are ETs/deities/a simulation? That sounds pretty crazy to me. How could you not care? It'd be by far the most important and interesting thing in all of human history. And then if you consider what new things might be enabled for us with that contact or knowledge, it'd quite possibly be the most important thing to ever happen for all of future human history; even millions of years into the future.

polytely 5y ago

I think it is improbable that there are currently aliens walking among us, but these sightings seem to keep happening and keep getting suppressed because people are afraid to look silly. The whole point of the article is that you shouldn't ignore weird things but investigate them (preferably while keeping the kooks out of it)

yummypaint 5y ago

Remember that our ancestors living in caves during the bronze age were our mental equals. It took people untold millenia to create fire rather than just maintain it. It took a thousand years to go from bronze to steel. It took less than half a century to go from the beginning of quantum theory to a working nuclear reactor. People are still stupid, but our technological growth continues to be truly exponential. We already rightfully put research money into all kinds of interesting areas simply because they are interesting. You can thank exactly this kind of work for making development of the covid vaccine possible. In fact i would assert that essentially all major tech developments in the last century benefeitted from or required input from basic research. It's worth investigating these things because we don't understand them, full stop.

sai_c 5y ago
How many people live in poverty, sickness and war in this day and age despite all scientific progress. Also, how many have no hope for the better ever, despite scientific progress. How many of those people will get the vaccine you mentioned. I talk about "mere mortals ", not privileged people from the western world.
- 7thaccount 5y ago
  I think many would argue things have gotten much better for a majority of the world's population. We still have a ways to grow as a society though.

j7ake 5y ago

Every scientist in the world would be interested in knowing this question. It would create entire fields of inquiry with lifetimes worth of questions to ask. Being able to observe and study phenomenon that defies known physics would completely energize the field of physics.

sai_c 5y ago
I said "mere mortals " in my initial post. Scientists are not mere mortals. Me, the little not-scientist is ;-).
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  Have you known any scientists? I think you're attributing waaay more ability to them than is realistic. Scientists really aren't any different from any other trained professional.

nscalf 5y ago

Why should we care if there is something fundamentally different about the world? Why do we go to school then, or why do we even bother publishing non-fictions? Your argument here is that we wouldn’t understand it at first anyway. This is a very strange anti-intellectual stance to take. If this were real, you should care because it would likely lead to a period of explosive growth for technology and science, and that directly impacts your life.

sai_c 5y ago
Anti-intellectual? Oh come on. I didn't talk about things we don't understand at first, but about never ever. Simply because we might not be capable of that. You seem to think we humans are so smart, that we can understand everything given enough time. I think we maybe aren't THAT smart. Furthermore, I think the thought that new technology makes the life of mere mortals better, is just that. A thought. We have so much technology today, yet most people on earth are poor, sick and just miserable. Without any hope for the better. I think your viewpoint is from a privileged point. The life of mere mortals (see my initial post) might not change at all. So why bother?
- mojomark 5y ago
  How would you know for certain that our (human) capacity to ever understand an idea or technology of some higher intellect is eternally insufficient? Deriving the proof of that impossibility (1) would be a very worthwhile pursuit in and of itself. Even if found, we can always adapt ourselves to exceed the observed bounds of pur intellectual capacity. Computers are one good example of how we've already started to adapt. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility
- nscalf 5y ago
  To reject the idea of discovery because we may not be able to understand it is absolutely anti-intellectual. Sure, maybe we can't fully understand it, but to just throw that out there with virtually no evidence other than "maybe it'd be complicated" is ridiculous. Technology has undoubtably made the world a much better place, your statement does not reflect reality. Rates of extreme poverty are at the lowest ever and dropping, hunger is decreasing across most of the world, life expectancy is rising, child mortality is dropping, homicide rates are massively down, education time is increasing and literacy rates are quickly approaching 100%. I know it's really popular to fetishize every little thing that is bad about the world, but to say technology increasing the quality of life is anything other than fact is ridiculous. Go tell all the scientists who predicted massive starvation due to food shortages that the Haber Method doesn't make peoples lives better.