4 ms·

Making fun of ethnic names isn't 'innocent fun' when your company purports to be diverse, equal, and inclusive. If you don't believe me, well, DHH himself agre

Making fun of ethnic names isn't 'innocent fun' when your company purports to be diverse, equal, and inclusive. If you don't believe me, well, DHH himself agrees with this: it's a problem when you acknowledge the pyramid of hate, as he does. What's at issue is that he acknowledges all of this, then refuses to recognize any wrongdoing, dresses down employees in public, and claims that "political talk" -- about the company, about whether these practices are correct, about whether this is an inclusive and equal place -- is banned.

ikt 5y ago
> Making fun of ethnic names They're not necessarily ethnic, some people just have funny names: https://theawesomedaily.com/50-funny-names-that-are-so-unfortunate-theyre-actually-genius/ https://theawesomedaily.com/50-funny-names-that-are-so-unfor... https://www.newidea.com.au/funny-names https://www.newidea.com.au/funny-names In your opinion just how genocidal are these articles on the pyramid of hate?
- bytelines 5y ago
  Your links have nothing to do with what basecamp did?
  - Udik 5y ago
    They're lists of funny names, same as what Basecamp did.
    - bytelines 5y ago
      What basecamp did "represents a serious, collective, and repeated failure at Basecamp [...] counter to creating an inclusive workplace. Nobody should think that maintaining such a list is okay or sanctioned behavior here."[1] [1] https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e
      - Udik 5y ago
        Yes, and that's referred to a list of funny names. It's still not clear to me in what the "ground fact" (the list of funny names) is different from the links posted above. I'll be frank- and I know that I'm risking the mistake of reading just what I want to read-, I think that those "counter to creating an inclusive workplace" and the general tone ("serious collective failure" etc.) are just nods to the social justice culture, and are meant to appease and concede some ground to the opponent. I don't think (also because it is clearly stated elsewhere in the same post) that there was anything intrinsically racist in that list, or anything that made it substantially different from those examples above. Apart from the obvious difference that these are customers, and it's not nice to secretly make fun of them.
- bob_roberts 5y ago
  > They're not necessarily ethnic The first list you posted has a bunch of "funny" East Asian names. That stuff was racist in "Sixteen Candles," there's no excuse for it in a modern workplace.
Udik 5y ago
I'm not sure where you read all this. In his post [1] DHH says: 1) that the list was a mistake and that they've learned and moved on. 2) that "I was dismayed to see the argument advanced in text and graphics on [Employee 1’s] post that this list should be considered part of a regime that eventually could lead to genocide. That's just not an appropriate or proportionate comparison to draw" 3) that "the vast majority" of the names in the list were in fact of Anglo-Saxon or white background. So he acknowledges, apologises and de-escalates. And points out that there is nothing racial about the list. What should he have done more, or differently? [1] https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e
- bytelines 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing that - I hadn't read that particular post and it's very thoughtful and well articulated, and facts there are indeed surprising, such as the vast majority of the list being Anglo-Saxon. To your question, I think it is the consequences of closing such a discussion that he leaves unaddressed. Does the company still value your opinion? Do you matter? I honestly think, as DHH hints, that being able to 'rehumanize' might avoid even having to ask these questions.
  - Udik 5y ago
    > I think it is the consequences of closing such a discussion that he leaves unaddressed. Does the company still value your opinion? Do you matter? It seems he clearly proved that those opinions matter, if he recognized the mistake, recognized the validity of some of the points made, and apologised. What I've observed in this and other well known instances of "social justice" protests (I hope it's the best neutral term to describe them) is that there seems to be no endgame accepted by the protesters. No apologies are ever accepted without an explicit or implicit transfer of power to them. An example of an explicit transfer of power is setting up some commission or bureaucratic structure where the protesters or people they trust will be enrolled; and resignations represent an implicit transfer of power (the recognized power to make someone lose their job, which is not a small one). Compare this with normal workplace dynamics. You can complain inside your workplace for many work-related reasons (workload, bad management, pay, etc.). Your complaints can be openly discussed, legitimately rejected, or acted upon. But in any case a change in the hierarchy or in the company structure is not something you expect. It can happen (very rarely) or not, and you might be satisfied with the responses or the changes or not, and if you don't like the answers after a while you might decide to move somewhere else. You don't consider unacceptable that the company doesn't see or address your point of view. At some point the discussion ends and that's it. This is not what happens on social justice complaints, and I think it's toxic (in the workplace, but in general everywhere).

ikt 5y ago

> Making fun of ethnic names They're not necessarily ethnic, some people just have funny names: https://theawesomedaily.com/50-funny-names-that-are-so-unfortunate-theyre-actually-genius/ https://theawesomedaily.com/50-funny-names-that-are-so-unfor... https://www.newidea.com.au/funny-names https://www.newidea.com.au/funny-names In your opinion just how genocidal are these articles on the pyramid of hate?

bytelines 5y ago
Your links have nothing to do with what basecamp did?
- Udik 5y ago
  They're lists of funny names, same as what Basecamp did.
  - bytelines 5y ago
    What basecamp did "represents a serious, collective, and repeated failure at Basecamp [...] counter to creating an inclusive workplace. Nobody should think that maintaining such a list is okay or sanctioned behavior here."[1] [1] https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e
    - Udik 5y ago
      Yes, and that's referred to a list of funny names. It's still not clear to me in what the "ground fact" (the list of funny names) is different from the links posted above. I'll be frank- and I know that I'm risking the mistake of reading just what I want to read-, I think that those "counter to creating an inclusive workplace" and the general tone ("serious collective failure" etc.) are just nods to the social justice culture, and are meant to appease and concede some ground to the opponent. I don't think (also because it is clearly stated elsewhere in the same post) that there was anything intrinsically racist in that list, or anything that made it substantially different from those examples above. Apart from the obvious difference that these are customers, and it's not nice to secretly make fun of them.
bob_roberts 5y ago
> They're not necessarily ethnic The first list you posted has a bunch of "funny" East Asian names. That stuff was racist in "Sixteen Candles," there's no excuse for it in a modern workplace.

Udik 5y ago

I'm not sure where you read all this. In his post [1] DHH says: 1) that the list was a mistake and that they've learned and moved on. 2) that "I was dismayed to see the argument advanced in text and graphics on [Employee 1’s] post that this list should be considered part of a regime that eventually could lead to genocide. That's just not an appropriate or proportionate comparison to draw" 3) that "the vast majority" of the names in the list were in fact of Anglo-Saxon or white background. So he acknowledges, apologises and de-escalates. And points out that there is nothing racial about the list. What should he have done more, or differently? [1] https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e https://world.hey.com/dhh/let-it-all-out-78485e8e

bytelines 5y ago
Thanks for sharing that - I hadn't read that particular post and it's very thoughtful and well articulated, and facts there are indeed surprising, such as the vast majority of the list being Anglo-Saxon. To your question, I think it is the consequences of closing such a discussion that he leaves unaddressed. Does the company still value your opinion? Do you matter? I honestly think, as DHH hints, that being able to 'rehumanize' might avoid even having to ask these questions.
- Udik 5y ago
  > I think it is the consequences of closing such a discussion that he leaves unaddressed. Does the company still value your opinion? Do you matter? It seems he clearly proved that those opinions matter, if he recognized the mistake, recognized the validity of some of the points made, and apologised. What I've observed in this and other well known instances of "social justice" protests (I hope it's the best neutral term to describe them) is that there seems to be no endgame accepted by the protesters. No apologies are ever accepted without an explicit or implicit transfer of power to them. An example of an explicit transfer of power is setting up some commission or bureaucratic structure where the protesters or people they trust will be enrolled; and resignations represent an implicit transfer of power (the recognized power to make someone lose their job, which is not a small one). Compare this with normal workplace dynamics. You can complain inside your workplace for many work-related reasons (workload, bad management, pay, etc.). Your complaints can be openly discussed, legitimately rejected, or acted upon. But in any case a change in the hierarchy or in the company structure is not something you expect. It can happen (very rarely) or not, and you might be satisfied with the responses or the changes or not, and if you don't like the answers after a while you might decide to move somewhere else. You don't consider unacceptable that the company doesn't see or address your point of view. At some point the discussion ends and that's it. This is not what happens on social justice complaints, and I think it's toxic (in the workplace, but in general everywhere).