4 ms·

Let me use an analogy: Imagine that you are walking by someone and accidentally elbow them in the ribs. They double over in pain, and exclaim loudly that you h

Let me use an analogy: Imagine that you are walking by someone and accidentally elbow them in the ribs. They double over in pain, and exclaim loudly that you hurt them really bad and you should apologize. Now you could get defensive and say "Well I didn't mean to elbow you in the ribs, it wasn't on purpose so I did nothing wrong" and "Also getting elbowed in the ribs isn't actually that painful, there's no reason to make a scene about it." But what you don't realize is this person was in a car accident last week, and below their shirt their ribs are broken. Your elbow just hit them on a sensitive bruise and jostled a broken rib. Your unintentional action was actually extremely hurtful. By protesting that you didn't do anything to hurt them you are just looking like a jerk. All it would have taken was an "I'm sorry, I'll be more careful" and it probably would have been fine. This is similar to what racism and the effects of racism are: there are people who have suffered trauma from heinous acts. As a result they are already in a wounded state, and something "not racist" in your mind can still hurt because it pokes in the same place as the "actual racism". Just like you can't accurately judge whether someone is actually in physical pain and how much physical pain they are in, you can't always tell how much your action hurts someone emotionally. In both cases the empathetic and moral thing to do is to believe the person in pain who says that your actions are hurtful.

Uhhrrr 5y ago
You're not "the person in pain" though. You are pretending to speak for them. In fact, one could say it's racist that you're feeling entitled to appropriate their pain when you claim to speak for them. Your racism is hurting me, and will continue to hurt me until you acknowledge that racism necessarily involves discrimination based on race, and that it's wrong and problematic of you to appropriate the actual suffering of others.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  And you are assuming that people who are hurt don't want allies to take up their hurts. Some people can only win with allies, and that means people who don't share the same hurts taking them up as burdens of their own anyway. And you know, democracy is all about coalition building.
  - Uhhrrr 5y ago
    An ally should take up the hurts of others, but not make up the hurts of others.
InsanityCheck 5y ago
This is not at all similar. The correct analogy would be if the person I accidentally elbowed claimed I was physically assaulting them, which I of course would deny. Racism is a very extreme call-out and it is no wonder that people defend against it. It is no matter of believing that I hurt the person, I do. But I am defending myself from an attack I believe is unproportional,and actually leaves no choice but to defend myself. Call it insensitive instead of racist and people are far more likely to listen.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway210222 5y ago
If you hit me I cannot feel 'murdered'. Murder has a definition, which is precisely why we can do something about it.
fighterpilot 5y ago
Ever heard of narcissistic injury? When it comes to hurt feelings, it's not always the fault of the speaker. Some emotional pain is completely fabricated for egoic or malicious reasons, or is simply mistaken.
TimTheTinker 5y ago
I'm not arguing against empathy for those who have been hurt by past acts of racism. We consider it normal and healthy to be careful and sensitive around those who have PTSD or the like from real offenses committed against them in the past. But to fail to be empathetic and thus re-open an emotional wound is not in the same category as the original offense, however bad such a lack of empathy may be. You're making several categorical errors in your posts. We have to be careful to speak and think with precision. "The truth will set you free" and "the tongue of the wise brings healing"; but logical fallacies only muddy the water, and vague accusations stir up strife.

Uhhrrr 5y ago

You're not "the person in pain" though. You are pretending to speak for them. In fact, one could say it's racist that you're feeling entitled to appropriate their pain when you claim to speak for them. Your racism is hurting me, and will continue to hurt me until you acknowledge that racism necessarily involves discrimination based on race, and that it's wrong and problematic of you to appropriate the actual suffering of others.

threatofrain 5y ago
And you are assuming that people who are hurt don't want allies to take up their hurts. Some people can only win with allies, and that means people who don't share the same hurts taking them up as burdens of their own anyway. And you know, democracy is all about coalition building.
- Uhhrrr 5y ago
  An ally should take up the hurts of others, but not make up the hurts of others.

InsanityCheck 5y ago

This is not at all similar. The correct analogy would be if the person I accidentally elbowed claimed I was physically assaulting them, which I of course would deny. Racism is a very extreme call-out and it is no wonder that people defend against it. It is no matter of believing that I hurt the person, I do. But I am defending myself from an attack I believe is unproportional,and actually leaves no choice but to defend myself. Call it insensitive instead of racist and people are far more likely to listen.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

throwaway210222 5y ago

If you hit me I cannot feel 'murdered'. Murder has a definition, which is precisely why we can do something about it.

fighterpilot 5y ago

Ever heard of narcissistic injury? When it comes to hurt feelings, it's not always the fault of the speaker. Some emotional pain is completely fabricated for egoic or malicious reasons, or is simply mistaken.

TimTheTinker 5y ago

I'm not arguing against empathy for those who have been hurt by past acts of racism. We consider it normal and healthy to be careful and sensitive around those who have PTSD or the like from real offenses committed against them in the past. But to fail to be empathetic and thus re-open an emotional wound is not in the same category as the original offense, however bad such a lack of empathy may be. You're making several categorical errors in your posts. We have to be careful to speak and think with precision. "The truth will set you free" and "the tongue of the wise brings healing"; but logical fallacies only muddy the water, and vague accusations stir up strife.