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No I would call them out if they make a homophobic comment at work & expect them to get the hint and stop. If they don't stop then yes they should be fired, and

by ido 6y ago

No I would call them out if they make a homophobic comment at work & expect them to get the hint and stop. If they don't stop then yes they should be fired, and it has nothing to do with Islam. You seem to expect this to be an inevitability but I've worked with plenty of Muslims in my 18 years career as I live in a city with almost half a million Muslim residents and I've never encountered a Muslim being homophobic at work. I have in the past called out people making misogynistic comments at work & generally people do get the hint and stop doing that. If they don't then you've identified a problem. EDIT: I think the current top thread already better formulates my opinion so I suggest reading that instead of continuing here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27001075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27001075

stale2002 6y ago
> make a homophobic comment at work See, but here is the rub. What if the comment is just "according to my islamic faith, my religious belief system does not support gay marriage". For all I know, you would call this statement homophobic, but if you punished this person for saying this a couple times, it would absolutely be illegal. > Nothing to do with Islam. Yes it does. Many people, do not support gay marriage because it a part of their faith. And if you fired or punished them for stating that this is their faith, then it would absolutely be illegal discrimination on your part.
- ido 6y ago
  That's what I mean in the other branch about more refined approach than an absolute "no politics" hammer. Where/why would someone say that multiple times in the company slack (never happened to me despite working with lots of muslims and lots of gay people btw)? If they say that as a reaction to a gay man posting somewhere "I'm out of office next week as John & I are getting married" than answering this with "with all due respect, as a Muslim I can't support you getting married to a man" is out of place. If they repeat after being called out that then yes that's a problem. They have the very reasonable possibility of simply not saying anything but that may require developing a company culture where people learn if and when to do that - this may require some "political" discussion between consenting adults and that's fine!
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > Where/why would someone say that Maybe someone asks them about their faith, in an informal setting, such as during lunch, and then they answer the question that was asked of them regarding how their faith applied to gay marriage. If you then punished them for this, then that would absolutely be an example of illegal discrimination, on your part.
    - ido 6y ago
      If they just answer respectfully when someone asks them specifically ("in my faith that's not allowed") but don't interject it themselves unasked for, over and over again when an individual mentions they are gay then that falls into "live and let live, you do you & I keep my opinions about your personal life to myself". Again this is in no way unique to muslims, and is just as likely to be the case with similarly devout christians so I don't see why you need to focus on islam specifically. I've personally also worked with orthodox jews who I am sure hold a lot of opinions I disagree with and somehow they managed to never voice homophobic or misogynistic comments & I managed to never tell them what I think about interpretations of the bible as the literal word of god. This is a situation which among reasonable people doesn't require outright ban of "political speech". You can cultivate a good company culture that deescalates flame wars without such a blunt instrument that may also have a lot of undesirable side effects.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        I mean, ok. Just understand that there are absolutely very dangerous illegal actions that you might be taking. It is very much possible, that according to the law, you are engaging in illegal discrimination against certain religions. > I don't see why you need to focus on islam specifically Well, the important reason why to focus on certain groups, is because of the possible illegality of your actions. Thats why.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

by ido 6y ago

stale2002 6y ago

> make a homophobic comment at work See, but here is the rub. What if the comment is just "according to my islamic faith, my religious belief system does not support gay marriage". For all I know, you would call this statement homophobic, but if you punished this person for saying this a couple times, it would absolutely be illegal. > Nothing to do with Islam. Yes it does. Many people, do not support gay marriage because it a part of their faith. And if you fired or punished them for stating that this is their faith, then it would absolutely be illegal discrimination on your part.

ido 6y ago
That's what I mean in the other branch about more refined approach than an absolute "no politics" hammer. Where/why would someone say that multiple times in the company slack (never happened to me despite working with lots of muslims and lots of gay people btw)? If they say that as a reaction to a gay man posting somewhere "I'm out of office next week as John & I are getting married" than answering this with "with all due respect, as a Muslim I can't support you getting married to a man" is out of place. If they repeat after being called out that then yes that's a problem. They have the very reasonable possibility of simply not saying anything but that may require developing a company culture where people learn if and when to do that - this may require some "political" discussion between consenting adults and that's fine!
- stale2002 6y ago
  > Where/why would someone say that Maybe someone asks them about their faith, in an informal setting, such as during lunch, and then they answer the question that was asked of them regarding how their faith applied to gay marriage. If you then punished them for this, then that would absolutely be an example of illegal discrimination, on your part.
  - ido 6y ago
    If they just answer respectfully when someone asks them specifically ("in my faith that's not allowed") but don't interject it themselves unasked for, over and over again when an individual mentions they are gay then that falls into "live and let live, you do you & I keep my opinions about your personal life to myself". Again this is in no way unique to muslims, and is just as likely to be the case with similarly devout christians so I don't see why you need to focus on islam specifically. I've personally also worked with orthodox jews who I am sure hold a lot of opinions I disagree with and somehow they managed to never voice homophobic or misogynistic comments & I managed to never tell them what I think about interpretations of the bible as the literal word of god. This is a situation which among reasonable people doesn't require outright ban of "political speech". You can cultivate a good company culture that deescalates flame wars without such a blunt instrument that may also have a lot of undesirable side effects.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      I mean, ok. Just understand that there are absolutely very dangerous illegal actions that you might be taking. It is very much possible, that according to the law, you are engaging in illegal discrimination against certain religions. > I don't see why you need to focus on islam specifically Well, the important reason why to focus on certain groups, is because of the possible illegality of your actions. Thats why.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]