4 ms·

This article is a very annoying piece of propaganda. The worst fallacy is the poisoned well ad hominem at the end where he claims that those who advise against

by bugsy 15y ago

This article is a very annoying piece of propaganda. The worst fallacy is the poisoned well ad hominem at the end where he claims that those who advise against college have degrees and therefore are selfish meanie "elitists" who are trying to stomp down the poor collegeless masses and keep them from advancing. It goes without saying that those who haven't been to college likewise are not allowed to advise against it, since they haven't been, how would they know? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Whether you have been to college or not, you are not allowed to have an opinion or advice others that one should consider carefully whether they want to go into significant debt in return for college. Regarding the fallacy it can easily be turned around to argue that the author is not qualified to argue for college because he has been and therefore has been brainwashed into the cult. Just as absurd an argument and the same reasoning. He also claims that the average current cost of attending 4 year public colleges in the US is $2000. This is complete nonsense. As others have pointed out here, the reason degreed people are better plumbers is because they were smarter to begin with, not because they learned plumbing in college. There was a study a couple years ago (sorry, no citation, can't find it) that compared people who were accepted into college but didn't go to those who were accepted and did go. He found that there was no difference in their earnings. The study showed that earnings differences are not due to "learning advanced skills" or such in college, but due to the fact that people who were already more capable to begin with were the ones that got accepted in the first place. Duh.

kenjackson 15y ago
He also claims that the average current cost of attending 4 year public colleges in the US is $2000. This is complete nonsense. I think the author is correct, but you're largely misquoting him. The author actually said this: "First, many colleges are not very expensive, once financial aid is taken into account. Average net tuition and fees at public four-year colleges this past year were only about $2,000 (though Congress may soon cut federal financial aid). " And if you read the cited article it points out that over the five years from 2004 to 2009 (when the cited article was written), while the "sticker price" of college has gone up dramatically, the actual amount paid by students has actually declined (for tuition and fees): "Yes. At public four-year colleges, the sticker price rose by 20 percent over the past five years (these are inflation-adjusted dollars, as are all historical comparisons I’m making), but the average net price fell $400 — from about $2,000 to $1,600. At private four-year colleges the sticker price rose by 15 percent, but the average net price fell 9 percent, or about $1,100. It is important to note that these figures are just for tuition and fees. Students also have to live, eat, buy books, and cover other expenses while they are in school. "
- shareme 15y ago
  author is still wrong, average costs of public college is $6000 not $2000 per 2 full time semesters
- Duff 15y ago
  I wonder if the author went to college? By his logic, my $200k house only costs me $16,000, because of financial aid. (ie. mortgage)
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    I'm really not sure what you're talking about, but this might be relevant: "The net prices I mentioned don’t take loans into account. We consider loans to be part of the students’ contribution. The students have to pay them back eventually."
    - bugsy 15y ago
      Thanks very much for digging that up, that's a good find and very relevant. That is the source he uses to claim it's $2000, and the interview it's from claims the actual cost has gone down from $2000 to $1600, but then near the end admits that loan debt is not considered part of college cost using the reasoning that "it's the students contribution". So it's not a cost, it's a contribution. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/q-a-the-real-cost-of-college/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/q-a-the-real-co...
      - kenjackson 15y ago
        but then near the end admits that loan debt is not considered part of college cost using the reasoning that "it's the students contribution". Actually she said the opposite. :-) She says, "The net prices I mentioned don’t take loans into account. We consider loans to be part of the students’ contribution. The students have to pay them back eventually." Net price is the price the student pays. It is reduced by financial aid, but she says that they do NOT take loans into account (whereas they do take Pell Grants into account). That is because students have to pay the loan eventually. So if you have a college tution that is $10,000/year. The sticker price is $10,000. If you have $2,000 in grants and $4,000 in loans then your net price is $8,000. They don't take loans into account when computing the net price.
Daniel_Newby 15y ago
"As others have pointed out here, the reason degreed people are better plumbers is because they were smarter to begin with, ..." Truth. The lion's share of income variation is explained by IQ. That is, statistical studies have shown that for a given IQ level, income is only weakly correlated to race, socioeconomic background, educational attainment, and so forth.

by bugsy 15y ago

kenjackson 15y ago

He also claims that the average current cost of attending 4 year public colleges in the US is $2000. This is complete nonsense. I think the author is correct, but you're largely misquoting him. The author actually said this: "First, many colleges are not very expensive, once financial aid is taken into account. Average net tuition and fees at public four-year colleges this past year were only about $2,000 (though Congress may soon cut federal financial aid). " And if you read the cited article it points out that over the five years from 2004 to 2009 (when the cited article was written), while the "sticker price" of college has gone up dramatically, the actual amount paid by students has actually declined (for tuition and fees): "Yes. At public four-year colleges, the sticker price rose by 20 percent over the past five years (these are inflation-adjusted dollars, as are all historical comparisons I’m making), but the average net price fell $400 — from about $2,000 to $1,600. At private four-year colleges the sticker price rose by 15 percent, but the average net price fell 9 percent, or about $1,100. It is important to note that these figures are just for tuition and fees. Students also have to live, eat, buy books, and cover other expenses while they are in school. "

shareme 15y ago
author is still wrong, average costs of public college is $6000 not $2000 per 2 full time semesters
Duff 15y ago
I wonder if the author went to college? By his logic, my $200k house only costs me $16,000, because of financial aid. (ie. mortgage)
- kenjackson 15y ago
  I'm really not sure what you're talking about, but this might be relevant: "The net prices I mentioned don’t take loans into account. We consider loans to be part of the students’ contribution. The students have to pay them back eventually."
  - bugsy 15y ago
    Thanks very much for digging that up, that's a good find and very relevant. That is the source he uses to claim it's $2000, and the interview it's from claims the actual cost has gone down from $2000 to $1600, but then near the end admits that loan debt is not considered part of college cost using the reasoning that "it's the students contribution". So it's not a cost, it's a contribution. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/q-a-the-real-cost-of-college/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/q-a-the-real-co...
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      but then near the end admits that loan debt is not considered part of college cost using the reasoning that "it's the students contribution". Actually she said the opposite. :-) She says, "The net prices I mentioned don’t take loans into account. We consider loans to be part of the students’ contribution. The students have to pay them back eventually." Net price is the price the student pays. It is reduced by financial aid, but she says that they do NOT take loans into account (whereas they do take Pell Grants into account). That is because students have to pay the loan eventually. So if you have a college tution that is $10,000/year. The sticker price is $10,000. If you have $2,000 in grants and $4,000 in loans then your net price is $8,000. They don't take loans into account when computing the net price.

Daniel_Newby 15y ago

"As others have pointed out here, the reason degreed people are better plumbers is because they were smarter to begin with, ..." Truth. The lion's share of income variation is explained by IQ. That is, statistical studies have shown that for a given IQ level, income is only weakly correlated to race, socioeconomic background, educational attainment, and so forth.