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> The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evenin

by kukx 5y ago

> The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? > Removing the "tipping" system. Increase prices such that an employee can afford the above mentioned necessities. Removing tipping and increasing prices beyond the tipping, it reduces to just increasing prices. I guess not very smart people create these enterprises, if only they hiked prices… And seriously, they definitely increases them, it is just a necessity. But I would not call this as a change in the model. > I think the industry will go here no matter what changes we do or do not make to policy, business models, etc. We do not have to necessary speed it up. People are already having difficult with keeping up with the changes. > We either decide these people are expendable, or that they are human beings worthy of a baseline of a dignified life. I define a dignified life as the ability to have at least the minimums I described above. Are there really only two options? Is not that a bit simplistic? And what does that even mean, do you think we should provide everyone with the job that ensures they have the mentioned stuff. What if they have different needs. And what if they do not qualify for any job, should we provide them with the exact stuff that people who work 40h a week get, or the equivalent in money? How is that fair for those who do these boring jobs.

shkkmo 5y ago
> Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? Very many.
scaramanga 5y ago
> Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? I would say, a place where you don't have to share quarters with strangers, be exposed to violence, drugs, have your sleep interrupted, where the housing is stable enough that you don't need to leave work in the middle of the day to attend an emergency court petition to prevent your immediate eviction due to landlords non-payment of mortgage and interception of mailed eviction notifications, where you don't have to leave under cover of darkness with colleagues who know how to handle themselves as your bodyguards so that you can spend a month or two sleeping on a friends sofa while you try and wait for a room to open up in something resembling a half-way house for recently released prisoners. Cos I mean, those were about the best conditions I could afford while working for a profitable multinational tech company while I was developing a key piece of the Internet infrastructure that everyone on this site uses daily (in a wealthy area of the UK). I won't name the company, but it rhymes with "Clit Tricks" > Are there really only two options? Is not that a bit simplistic? ... should we provide them with the exact stuff that people who work 40h a week get ... ? Is _that_ not a bit simplistic? Is it really so difficult to imagine a world where working 40 hours a week is either a) dignified enough not to be totally demeaning and exploitative _and_ meaningful enough to carry some intrinsic reward, or b) pays noticeably more than the bare minimum required for an existence at least befitting the dignity of animals in a zoo, never mind human beings?
- 55555 5y ago
  A lot of the issues you reasonably want to avoid seem like they could be solved more directly by other means. The argument seems to be, "America is a hell hole, so everyone needs enough money to escape it." There are poor countries where people dont live in fear of eviction and the slums arent full of violence and drugs. Maybe it's too difficult to change culture though, and we should just throw money at the problem.
  - scaramanga 5y ago
    The fact that it can be done in a poor country is all the more reason that it's a scandal that it is not being done in a rich country. These poor countries don't have any special techniques or mystical cultural powers. For example, the fact that south Korea has adequate flood defences and the UK does not is not because Korean culture lends them a racial character uniquely cognizant of water management passed down from their ancestors over generations of rice cultivation or whatever... There is absolutely no reason the UK is unable to "throw money" at constructing flood defences (altering planning policy, etc.) if they were to so chose. The idea is not to "escape the hellhole" but to transform it in to "not a hellhole", through the direct, rational application of readily available, and completely straight-forward policy mechanisms. But maybe it's too difficult to use political policy as a tool to achieve desired outcomes and we should blame the victims, turning it in to a nebulous cultural or moral failing and then wait around for the culture to just spontaneously change itself, eh :)
selimnairb 5y ago
Countries like Australia and France seem to have figured out the non-tipping thing. What makes us so special that it won’t work here?
- cbozeman 5y ago
  American exceptionalism... for every single thing... <image>1000_eyeroll_smileys.gif</image>
ruined 5y ago
>Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/minimum-wage-workers-cannot-afford-rent-in-any-us-state.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/minimum-wage-workers-cannot-...
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  And as an aside: This is for a two bedroom - and it is important to afford a two bedroom. Single parents often need to keep a two bedroom even if their child or children only visit every other weekend. A one bedroom often isn't significantly cheaper, and a studio isn't always cheaper than a one bedroom.
  - ruined 5y ago
    read the entire first sentence

by kukx 5y ago

shkkmo 5y ago

> Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? Very many.

scaramanga 5y ago

> Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? I would say, a place where you don't have to share quarters with strangers, be exposed to violence, drugs, have your sleep interrupted, where the housing is stable enough that you don't need to leave work in the middle of the day to attend an emergency court petition to prevent your immediate eviction due to landlords non-payment of mortgage and interception of mailed eviction notifications, where you don't have to leave under cover of darkness with colleagues who know how to handle themselves as your bodyguards so that you can spend a month or two sleeping on a friends sofa while you try and wait for a room to open up in something resembling a half-way house for recently released prisoners. Cos I mean, those were about the best conditions I could afford while working for a profitable multinational tech company while I was developing a key piece of the Internet infrastructure that everyone on this site uses daily (in a wealthy area of the UK). I won't name the company, but it rhymes with "Clit Tricks" > Are there really only two options? Is not that a bit simplistic? ... should we provide them with the exact stuff that people who work 40h a week get ... ? Is _that_ not a bit simplistic? Is it really so difficult to imagine a world where working 40 hours a week is either a) dignified enough not to be totally demeaning and exploitative _and_ meaningful enough to carry some intrinsic reward, or b) pays noticeably more than the bare minimum required for an existence at least befitting the dignity of animals in a zoo, never mind human beings?

55555 5y ago
A lot of the issues you reasonably want to avoid seem like they could be solved more directly by other means. The argument seems to be, "America is a hell hole, so everyone needs enough money to escape it." There are poor countries where people dont live in fear of eviction and the slums arent full of violence and drugs. Maybe it's too difficult to change culture though, and we should just throw money at the problem.
- scaramanga 5y ago
  The fact that it can be done in a poor country is all the more reason that it's a scandal that it is not being done in a rich country. These poor countries don't have any special techniques or mystical cultural powers. For example, the fact that south Korea has adequate flood defences and the UK does not is not because Korean culture lends them a racial character uniquely cognizant of water management passed down from their ancestors over generations of rice cultivation or whatever... There is absolutely no reason the UK is unable to "throw money" at constructing flood defences (altering planning policy, etc.) if they were to so chose. The idea is not to "escape the hellhole" but to transform it in to "not a hellhole", through the direct, rational application of readily available, and completely straight-forward policy mechanisms. But maybe it's too difficult to use political policy as a tool to achieve desired outcomes and we should blame the victims, turning it in to a nebulous cultural or moral failing and then wait around for the culture to just spontaneously change itself, eh :)

selimnairb 5y ago

Countries like Australia and France seem to have figured out the non-tipping thing. What makes us so special that it won’t work here?

cbozeman 5y ago
American exceptionalism... for every single thing... <image>1000_eyeroll_smileys.gif</image>

ruined 5y ago

>Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/minimum-wage-workers-cannot-afford-rent-in-any-us-state.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/minimum-wage-workers-cannot-...

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
And as an aside: This is for a two bedroom - and it is important to afford a two bedroom. Single parents often need to keep a two bedroom even if their child or children only visit every other weekend. A one bedroom often isn't significantly cheaper, and a studio isn't always cheaper than a one bedroom.
- ruined 5y ago
  read the entire first sentence