8 ms·

Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. How much stuff one should afford to avoid being called poor. What is the change of the model in case of

by kukx 5y ago

Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. How much stuff one should afford to avoid being called poor. What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. But, if we consider these crappy jobs, what about people that are not qualified/able to do any more advanced jobs? People have vastly different cognitive abilities, it is not like we can teach everyone to code. It will not work.

rbg246 5y ago
There are definitions and I believe another commenter in this thread has defined it very solidly about poverty. There will always be service sector jobs, this is the argument luddites were having in 1815 (I don't want to get into this as it is distracting from my main point). We should be ensuring that anyone putting in 40 hours a week should be able to support a family. The wealth is there to be able to create this society (not saying it's easy not saying there are not problems).
- kukx 5y ago
  What does it mean to support a family? Is getting them sheltered, clothed and well fed good enough? I think it is way easier to achieve today than in almost any other time in a human history, even for the low earners. Restaurants are a part of the service sector. A service job does not imply that it is attractive. And they differ in requirements. The well paid ones get more and more complicated and hence, proportionally to the whole population, less and less people will be able to qualify for them.
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    At least in the US, that's just not true. Rent and healthcare costs (which together are the majority costs for low income people) have risen way faster than inflation since the 1970s.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    What does it mean to ask questions in bad faith?
    - xkcd-sucks 5y ago
      To ask those questions of which everyone knows the answers and of which raising the subject is 'impolite' :)
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    Wow---you need to look around. Finding shelter is exponential Harder now than any time in my memory. We have a homelessness problem that it unpresidented. I would bet more people are now than anytime in history. (Pioneers could camp when they were tired. Cavemen weren't ticketed for sleeping under a ledge.) Hell--30 years ago certain states were still offering homesteads. There's not an inch of land in the USA that live for free. (BLM land requires you to move every two weeks. Only some BLM land us open to camping.) Try taking a nap in your closest park, or open field. You will get poked by a angry cop. You will understand loitering/trespass laws innately. People, especially in service jobs, are living on top of each other. Why was the Corona virus so prevelant in the hispanic communities? As to your previous statement, "We all can't be Coders." I have personally know three older Programmers. Two died because they aged out of the industry, and became homeless. The other is currently being harassed in Richardson Bay by Sausalito cops, and the coast guard, over a dispute of the seaworthiness of his sailboat. One was Jim Fox. A huge contributor to Word Star. He ended up in San Rafael wearing a fuzzy Penguin outfit begging. He died a few years ago. You might be one of those Service applicants in a decade? (I'm not going to debate this guy. My biggest worry post Covid is the huge increase in homelessness we are going to see. The government needs to open up any excess federal, state, and local to to free camping. We need to put up tent cities. I feel it's going to get very ugly.)
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Support a family? How many kids should I be able to support on my unskilled 40 hours/week? Look, I might be convinced that minimum wage is too low, though I'm much more inclined to leave that as a matter for the employee and employer to reach agreement on. But if you have no marketable skills and the only work you can get is entry-level minimum wage, you have no business starting a family as the sole income-earner. None.
  - Retric 5y ago
    That’s a rather eugenic standpoint. I think the argument is actual children are part of those family’s, it’s up to society how to deal with it. Currently we subsidize business and families, but perhaps we could remove the business subsidy.
cbozeman 5y ago
> Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. > What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? Removing the "tipping" system. Increase prices such that an employee can afford the above mentioned necessities. > I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. I think the industry will go here no matter what changes we do or do not make to policy, business models, etc. > But, if we consider these crappy jobs, what about people that are not qualified/able to do any more advanced jobs? People have vastly different cognitive abilities, it is not like we can teach everyone to code. It will not work. We either decide these people are expendable, or that they are human beings worthy of a baseline of a dignified life. I define a dignified life as the ability to have at least the minimums I described above.
- kukx 5y ago
  > The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? > Removing the "tipping" system. Increase prices such that an employee can afford the above mentioned necessities. Removing tipping and increasing prices beyond the tipping, it reduces to just increasing prices. I guess not very smart people create these enterprises, if only they hiked prices… And seriously, they definitely increases them, it is just a necessity. But I would not call this as a change in the model. > I think the industry will go here no matter what changes we do or do not make to policy, business models, etc. We do not have to necessary speed it up. People are already having difficult with keeping up with the changes. > We either decide these people are expendable, or that they are human beings worthy of a baseline of a dignified life. I define a dignified life as the ability to have at least the minimums I described above. Are there really only two options? Is not that a bit simplistic? And what does that even mean, do you think we should provide everyone with the job that ensures they have the mentioned stuff. What if they have different needs. And what if they do not qualify for any job, should we provide them with the exact stuff that people who work 40h a week get, or the equivalent in money? How is that fair for those who do these boring jobs.
Spooky23 5y ago
> define what is a poverty wage, it is important. If you work full time as an adult and are Medicaid eligible, you’re being paid poverty wages. > What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? Raise the prices. It’s already happened anyway, the market has plenty of elasticity. Restauranteurs always whine about how impossible it is to raise prices, yet they seem to manage to do so just fine.
- tomcam 5y ago
  That’s a really excellent idea. On the off chance that you may be wrong in a few cases, what happens if you go out of business after raising your prices enough to get wages high enough to be where you think they should be?
  - 6510 5y ago
    There is a working restaurant a few blocks away.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      And they're fully staffed. What do all the employees of the shuttered restaurant do?
      - Spooky23 5y ago
        60% of restaurants fail in the first year. The employees get unemployment (they aren’t gig workers) and find another job.
      - 6510 5y ago
        This is the system we are using. I don't have to like it. Scaling is done something like: If there is room for 4 shoe stores and there are 7 its going to be difficult for all of them until 2 close.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    That’s why the government has minimum wages, which help the market deal with that. Fast service restaurants have already adapted. Five Guys or Chipotle cost more for a better product. McDonalds has to remind you on the wrapper that their burger contains beef.
pessimizer 5y ago
> I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. This is generally not possible at twice the cost. The robots generally suck and break down a lot. Now you've replaced a bunch of low-skilled, interchangeable staff who work like dogs with a fleet of mechanics and an engineering department. Half of the McDonald's automated kiosks I see are broken - and it's usually the store's entire system down, for weeks or months on end. I went to Home Depot today to grab some WD-40, and when I went to do the self-checkout, each of the four stations had a clerk helping the customer "self" checkout. To circle back to McDonald's - it's always been a joke how difficult some fast food clerks find their POS systems - where does this fantasy come from that customers are going to be better at it? When it is possible to automate a job away, it is desirable. It's good that raising labor costs drives technology development. The better technology we have, the more comfortable we can all be, and the less we have to work as a species.
- kukx 5y ago
  > This is generally not possible at twice the cost. We get better at automation constantly. Thinking that just because today our technology sucks it will stay this way, is not reasonable in my opinion. > When it is possible to automate a job away, it is desirable. Yes, it reduces the cost (of the workforce). However, this change comes with a nontrivial social cost and a problem, what to do with the people that are not able to do more advanced stuff.

by kukx 5y ago

rbg246 5y ago

There are definitions and I believe another commenter in this thread has defined it very solidly about poverty. There will always be service sector jobs, this is the argument luddites were having in 1815 (I don't want to get into this as it is distracting from my main point). We should be ensuring that anyone putting in 40 hours a week should be able to support a family. The wealth is there to be able to create this society (not saying it's easy not saying there are not problems).

kukx 5y ago
What does it mean to support a family? Is getting them sheltered, clothed and well fed good enough? I think it is way easier to achieve today than in almost any other time in a human history, even for the low earners. Restaurants are a part of the service sector. A service job does not imply that it is attractive. And they differ in requirements. The well paid ones get more and more complicated and hence, proportionally to the whole population, less and less people will be able to qualify for them.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  At least in the US, that's just not true. Rent and healthcare costs (which together are the majority costs for low income people) have risen way faster than inflation since the 1970s.
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  What does it mean to ask questions in bad faith?
  - xkcd-sucks 5y ago
    To ask those questions of which everyone knows the answers and of which raising the subject is 'impolite' :)
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Wow---you need to look around. Finding shelter is exponential Harder now than any time in my memory. We have a homelessness problem that it unpresidented. I would bet more people are now than anytime in history. (Pioneers could camp when they were tired. Cavemen weren't ticketed for sleeping under a ledge.) Hell--30 years ago certain states were still offering homesteads. There's not an inch of land in the USA that live for free. (BLM land requires you to move every two weeks. Only some BLM land us open to camping.) Try taking a nap in your closest park, or open field. You will get poked by a angry cop. You will understand loitering/trespass laws innately. People, especially in service jobs, are living on top of each other. Why was the Corona virus so prevelant in the hispanic communities? As to your previous statement, "We all can't be Coders." I have personally know three older Programmers. Two died because they aged out of the industry, and became homeless. The other is currently being harassed in Richardson Bay by Sausalito cops, and the coast guard, over a dispute of the seaworthiness of his sailboat. One was Jim Fox. A huge contributor to Word Star. He ended up in San Rafael wearing a fuzzy Penguin outfit begging. He died a few years ago. You might be one of those Service applicants in a decade? (I'm not going to debate this guy. My biggest worry post Covid is the huge increase in homelessness we are going to see. The government needs to open up any excess federal, state, and local to to free camping. We need to put up tent cities. I feel it's going to get very ugly.)
throwawayboise 5y ago
Support a family? How many kids should I be able to support on my unskilled 40 hours/week? Look, I might be convinced that minimum wage is too low, though I'm much more inclined to leave that as a matter for the employee and employer to reach agreement on. But if you have no marketable skills and the only work you can get is entry-level minimum wage, you have no business starting a family as the sole income-earner. None.
- Retric 5y ago
  That’s a rather eugenic standpoint. I think the argument is actual children are part of those family’s, it’s up to society how to deal with it. Currently we subsidize business and families, but perhaps we could remove the business subsidy.

cbozeman 5y ago

> Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. > What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? Removing the "tipping" system. Increase prices such that an employee can afford the above mentioned necessities. > I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. I think the industry will go here no matter what changes we do or do not make to policy, business models, etc. > But, if we consider these crappy jobs, what about people that are not qualified/able to do any more advanced jobs? People have vastly different cognitive abilities, it is not like we can teach everyone to code. It will not work. We either decide these people are expendable, or that they are human beings worthy of a baseline of a dignified life. I define a dignified life as the ability to have at least the minimums I described above.

kukx 5y ago
> The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that? > Removing the "tipping" system. Increase prices such that an employee can afford the above mentioned necessities. Removing tipping and increasing prices beyond the tipping, it reduces to just increasing prices. I guess not very smart people create these enterprises, if only they hiked prices… And seriously, they definitely increases them, it is just a necessity. But I would not call this as a change in the model. > I think the industry will go here no matter what changes we do or do not make to policy, business models, etc. We do not have to necessary speed it up. People are already having difficult with keeping up with the changes. > We either decide these people are expendable, or that they are human beings worthy of a baseline of a dignified life. I define a dignified life as the ability to have at least the minimums I described above. Are there really only two options? Is not that a bit simplistic? And what does that even mean, do you think we should provide everyone with the job that ensures they have the mentioned stuff. What if they have different needs. And what if they do not qualify for any job, should we provide them with the exact stuff that people who work 40h a week get, or the equivalent in money? How is that fair for those who do these boring jobs.

Spooky23 5y ago

> define what is a poverty wage, it is important. If you work full time as an adult and are Medicaid eligible, you’re being paid poverty wages. > What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? Raise the prices. It’s already happened anyway, the market has plenty of elasticity. Restauranteurs always whine about how impossible it is to raise prices, yet they seem to manage to do so just fine.

tomcam 5y ago
That’s a really excellent idea. On the off chance that you may be wrong in a few cases, what happens if you go out of business after raising your prices enough to get wages high enough to be where you think they should be?
- 6510 5y ago
  There is a working restaurant a few blocks away.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    And they're fully staffed. What do all the employees of the shuttered restaurant do?
    - Spooky23 5y ago
      60% of restaurants fail in the first year. The employees get unemployment (they aren’t gig workers) and find another job.
    - 6510 5y ago
      This is the system we are using. I don't have to like it. Scaling is done something like: If there is room for 4 shoe stores and there are 7 its going to be difficult for all of them until 2 close.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  That’s why the government has minimum wages, which help the market deal with that. Fast service restaurants have already adapted. Five Guys or Chipotle cost more for a better product. McDonalds has to remind you on the wrapper that their burger contains beef.

pessimizer 5y ago

> I can see only one, automate the jobs away to reduce the costs, namely replace humans with robots. This is generally not possible at twice the cost. The robots generally suck and break down a lot. Now you've replaced a bunch of low-skilled, interchangeable staff who work like dogs with a fleet of mechanics and an engineering department. Half of the McDonald's automated kiosks I see are broken - and it's usually the store's entire system down, for weeks or months on end. I went to Home Depot today to grab some WD-40, and when I went to do the self-checkout, each of the four stations had a clerk helping the customer "self" checkout. To circle back to McDonald's - it's always been a joke how difficult some fast food clerks find their POS systems - where does this fantasy come from that customers are going to be better at it? When it is possible to automate a job away, it is desirable. It's good that raising labor costs drives technology development. The better technology we have, the more comfortable we can all be, and the less we have to work as a species.

kukx 5y ago
> This is generally not possible at twice the cost. We get better at automation constantly. Thinking that just because today our technology sucks it will stay this way, is not reasonable in my opinion. > When it is possible to automate a job away, it is desirable. Yes, it reduces the cost (of the workforce). However, this change comes with a nontrivial social cost and a problem, what to do with the people that are not able to do more advanced stuff.