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The problem with managing people, is that they are managed by people. Managing people is hard to do well. It's like writing code. There are bugs, everyone ha

The problem with managing people, is that they are managed by people. Managing people is hard to do well. It's like writing code. There are bugs, everyone has their own style, everyone thinks the other person's management process was faulty. At some point, your organization needs to set company wide standards. ...and like coding standards, they aren't perfect, they can have grey areas, and in some contexts they don't even make sense. But on the whole, they do more good than bad. Don't put GOTO statements in your code. Don't hard code passwords in your scripts. Don't talk about politics or religion in the office.

cmorgan31 6y ago
You would think a company that's been in business for two decades would have a rather robust ethics guide to working with corporate and enterprise customers. It seems to be part and parcel for almost all large SaaS companies. How in the world did they let their culture get bad enough for political rants?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > You would think a company that's been in business for two decades would have a rather robust ethics guide to working with corporate and enterprise customers No, I’d more expect a tech firm that arose in that era which gave us the “tech bro” image and in which reacting against stuffy, corporate, professional corporate structure and culture was all the rage to be among the least likely of firms to have that.
- StandardFuture 6y ago
  What job can you go on on political rants at? If you can get away with that then this means 1. You have a controlling share in the company and don't give af (b/c you might lose customers and employees) 2. Everyone else (at the company) already completely or mostly agrees with your rants 3. You are so damn good at what you do that people have to put up with you Let's be honest, the most common reason people do get away with personal political rants at companies is because they get lucky and are in Scenario 2. This is another reason why everything is becoming more polarized. Companies are beginning to "lean" much more one direction or another. There is no reason to think that this will change anytime soon.
  - jack9 6y ago
    #3 AKA The most toxic person at the workplace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlpOAGRsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlpOAGRsQ
    - StandardFuture 6y ago
      Anyone going on a political rant is "a toxic person" in the workplace. It's always interesting to see the sheer prevalence of downvotes without reasoned response on hacker news. Completely disappointing.
  - StandardFuture 6y ago
    Any actual responses? Or can we all assume that my point is 100% valid and the dissenters are too incapable of providing a proper rebuttal? Rhetorical question, btw.
  - kingsuper20 6y ago
    >3. You are so damn good at what you do that people have to put up with you I've seen that one before. It usually seems to involve throwing chairs.
    - EvilEy3 6y ago
      Good stuff.
dogman144 6y ago
Overall this is the sticking point to the argument that being a better manager will solve it. Tech has awful leadership development pipelines and programs at the Junior and mid levels. I sort of struggle to think of anyone that actually does this at non-managing director levels other than the military with its Junior officer corps and maybe a very select few companies. Not to be extremely pedantic, but the fact that the term “management” is thrown in as a solution and not “leadership” sort of proves this point. OP is referring to generally strong and sound leadership techniques. These can and are taught by a select few orgs I just referred to; there’s definitely a science there to learn. The issue is that so, so much of professional America doesn’t produce good leaders or bother to train them. The idea that strong management is a tenable, broad based solution, when the ball is currently at the line of management == don’t be an a* when you make schedules for your team, is not a good one. Until corporate America, and especially tech, starts planning how to produce leaders and not just managers, a blanket ban is the only thing that makes much sense as an org policy that could actually work. It’s true, fwiw. This is a leadership challenge that is solvable, and the orgs that grow leaders have track records of solving it without total bans. It’s usually just a matter of enforcing professionalism, diverting attention, steering attitudes, and most importantly working to create extremely high trust environments by designed. But: too many managers try* to hang in this brutal forum where* the best engineer who wanted to do EM stuff is a manager, and suddenly has to handle this. Leadership dev programs for junior leaders/EM-equivalent take years to do, not a promotion.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  I've worked in a number of industries, and ALL of them have poor or non-existent management/leadership training programs. Even full MBA programs do a poor job at this.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    Yeah agreed. High payoff area to invest I think but it takes like, a lot of planning. It’s almost a full new department for a company.
kingsuper20 6y ago
>Managing people is hard to do well. It's like writing code. I'll say. One problem is that if management, especially owners, feel like control of the company is being wrested from them, they'll get pretty radical in the course corrections. An 18th C. Navy Captain facing a mutiny will probably need to hang people until he's sure of his position. There really is no other way.

cmorgan31 6y ago

You would think a company that's been in business for two decades would have a rather robust ethics guide to working with corporate and enterprise customers. It seems to be part and parcel for almost all large SaaS companies. How in the world did they let their culture get bad enough for political rants?

dragonwriter 6y ago
> You would think a company that's been in business for two decades would have a rather robust ethics guide to working with corporate and enterprise customers No, I’d more expect a tech firm that arose in that era which gave us the “tech bro” image and in which reacting against stuffy, corporate, professional corporate structure and culture was all the rage to be among the least likely of firms to have that.
StandardFuture 6y ago
What job can you go on on political rants at? If you can get away with that then this means 1. You have a controlling share in the company and don't give af (b/c you might lose customers and employees) 2. Everyone else (at the company) already completely or mostly agrees with your rants 3. You are so damn good at what you do that people have to put up with you Let's be honest, the most common reason people do get away with personal political rants at companies is because they get lucky and are in Scenario 2. This is another reason why everything is becoming more polarized. Companies are beginning to "lean" much more one direction or another. There is no reason to think that this will change anytime soon.
- jack9 6y ago
  #3 AKA The most toxic person at the workplace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlpOAGRsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlpOAGRsQ
  - StandardFuture 6y ago
    Anyone going on a political rant is "a toxic person" in the workplace. It's always interesting to see the sheer prevalence of downvotes without reasoned response on hacker news. Completely disappointing.
- StandardFuture 6y ago
  Any actual responses? Or can we all assume that my point is 100% valid and the dissenters are too incapable of providing a proper rebuttal? Rhetorical question, btw.
- kingsuper20 6y ago
  >3. You are so damn good at what you do that people have to put up with you I've seen that one before. It usually seems to involve throwing chairs.
  - EvilEy3 6y ago
    Good stuff.

dogman144 6y ago

Overall this is the sticking point to the argument that being a better manager will solve it. Tech has awful leadership development pipelines and programs at the Junior and mid levels. I sort of struggle to think of anyone that actually does this at non-managing director levels other than the military with its Junior officer corps and maybe a very select few companies. Not to be extremely pedantic, but the fact that the term “management” is thrown in as a solution and not “leadership” sort of proves this point. OP is referring to generally strong and sound leadership techniques. These can and are taught by a select few orgs I just referred to; there’s definitely a science there to learn. The issue is that so, so much of professional America doesn’t produce good leaders or bother to train them. The idea that strong management is a tenable, broad based solution, when the ball is currently at the line of management == don’t be an a* when you make schedules for your team, is not a good one. Until corporate America, and especially tech, starts planning how to produce leaders and not just managers, a blanket ban is the only thing that makes much sense as an org policy that could actually work. It’s true, fwiw. This is a leadership challenge that is solvable, and the orgs that grow leaders have track records of solving it without total bans. It’s usually just a matter of enforcing professionalism, diverting attention, steering attitudes, and most importantly working to create extremely high trust environments by designed. But: too many managers try* to hang in this brutal forum where* the best engineer who wanted to do EM stuff is a manager, and suddenly has to handle this. Leadership dev programs for junior leaders/EM-equivalent take years to do, not a promotion.

koheripbal 6y ago
I've worked in a number of industries, and ALL of them have poor or non-existent management/leadership training programs. Even full MBA programs do a poor job at this.
- dogman144 6y ago
  Yeah agreed. High payoff area to invest I think but it takes like, a lot of planning. It’s almost a full new department for a company.

kingsuper20 6y ago

>Managing people is hard to do well. It's like writing code. I'll say. One problem is that if management, especially owners, feel like control of the company is being wrested from them, they'll get pretty radical in the course corrections. An 18th C. Navy Captain facing a mutiny will probably need to hang people until he's sure of his position. There really is no other way.