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The college vs. no college debate is bunk. The real question is: Why doesn't high school prepare folks with the skills needed to succeed in one of the professio

by Duff 15y ago

The college vs. no college debate is bunk. The real question is: Why doesn't high school prepare folks with the skills needed to succeed in one of the professions mentioned in the article. The key to succeeding in all of those jobs is command of reading and arithmetic. If you can read a manual and do enough math to handle money at some scale, you're 80% of the way to succeeding somewhere. Public schools utterly fail at helping students achieve this. 99% of 18 year olds should be able to interpret a train schedule or read and understand a big-city newspaper. 99% of 18 year olds should be capable of doing long division and computing percentages without tools. The reality is far less. Getting through college is essentially a filter that eliminates the folks who are not appropriately literate or capable of doing math. As an extreme anecdotal example, I worked with an illiterate retail computer salesman in his 30's while I was in college. He was a good salesman who relied on memorization and mastery of the legacy, AS/400 terminal based system. He was an intelligent, driven man -- but he couldn't advance, and struggled when the company introduced a browser based configure to order system.

socillion 15y ago
Both you and TFA make the assumption that college increases your skill in fields such as plumbing. Correlation (college & higher pay) =/= Causation (college => more skill => more pay), and that is why people debate the current college situation. Why is it that a future plumber needs to go to college to maximize his earnings, when it will have little to no benefit to his plumbing prowess, and would in fact hinder it due to the opportunity cost of those 4 years? > Getting through college is essentially a filter that eliminates the folks who are not appropriately literate or capable of doing math. What a ridiculously wasteful filter. > Public schools utterly fail at helping students achieve this. 99% of 18 year olds should be able to interpret a train schedule or read and understand a big-city newspaper. 99% of 18 year olds should be capable of doing long division and computing percentages without tools. The reality is far less. Are you sure about that? Long division is admittedly rapidly becoming a lost art (calculators, cell phones, anything electronic has a way to divide!) However, I'd be surprised if nearly everyone wasn't capable of the rest.
- klbarry 15y ago
  > Are you sure about that? Long division is admittedly rapidly becoming a lost art (calculators, cell phones, anything electronic has a way to divide!) However, I'd be surprised if nearly everyone wasn't capable of the rest. I don't have the link handy, but the examples he mentions (train catalogue/newspaper) are the same explicitly mentioned in the Federal government's reports on the subject, and a significant portion of the population is not capable, according to those reports.
- Duff 15y ago
  The article implies that college magically gives you skills that make you a successful plumber. I argue that getting into (and out of) college means that you have the basic academic skills to be a successful plumber. Those aren't the same arguments. Plumbing isn't just unclogging toilets. You need to be capable of measuring, computing distances, reading manuals for boilers and pumps, etc. Not rocket science, but beyond the capabilities of 40-60% of the graduates of many high schools. In my mind, the problem is that 30 years ago, a high school degree was sufficient to assume that you can perform basic skills (skills that most successful programmers probably can demonstrate around age 12). Is long division archaic in the age of the smartphone? Perhaps -- I've found it to be a fantastic screening device for high school interns. Print out a few Amtrak Northeast Corridor train schedules and ask questions about getting between various points between various points as a second level screen.
  - socillion 15y ago
    I see what you mean, I agree. It does seem a bit excessive that college is needed to prove those skills, though. I think the problem with high school education being insufficient now is a cultural mindset that academic success before college is not important. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think what is being taught is insufficient, just what is learned.

by Duff 15y ago

socillion 15y ago

Both you and TFA make the assumption that college increases your skill in fields such as plumbing. Correlation (college & higher pay) =/= Causation (college => more skill => more pay), and that is why people debate the current college situation. Why is it that a future plumber needs to go to college to maximize his earnings, when it will have little to no benefit to his plumbing prowess, and would in fact hinder it due to the opportunity cost of those 4 years? > Getting through college is essentially a filter that eliminates the folks who are not appropriately literate or capable of doing math. What a ridiculously wasteful filter. > Public schools utterly fail at helping students achieve this. 99% of 18 year olds should be able to interpret a train schedule or read and understand a big-city newspaper. 99% of 18 year olds should be capable of doing long division and computing percentages without tools. The reality is far less. Are you sure about that? Long division is admittedly rapidly becoming a lost art (calculators, cell phones, anything electronic has a way to divide!) However, I'd be surprised if nearly everyone wasn't capable of the rest.

klbarry 15y ago
> Are you sure about that? Long division is admittedly rapidly becoming a lost art (calculators, cell phones, anything electronic has a way to divide!) However, I'd be surprised if nearly everyone wasn't capable of the rest. I don't have the link handy, but the examples he mentions (train catalogue/newspaper) are the same explicitly mentioned in the Federal government's reports on the subject, and a significant portion of the population is not capable, according to those reports.
Duff 15y ago
The article implies that college magically gives you skills that make you a successful plumber. I argue that getting into (and out of) college means that you have the basic academic skills to be a successful plumber. Those aren't the same arguments. Plumbing isn't just unclogging toilets. You need to be capable of measuring, computing distances, reading manuals for boilers and pumps, etc. Not rocket science, but beyond the capabilities of 40-60% of the graduates of many high schools. In my mind, the problem is that 30 years ago, a high school degree was sufficient to assume that you can perform basic skills (skills that most successful programmers probably can demonstrate around age 12). Is long division archaic in the age of the smartphone? Perhaps -- I've found it to be a fantastic screening device for high school interns. Print out a few Amtrak Northeast Corridor train schedules and ask questions about getting between various points between various points as a second level screen.
- socillion 15y ago
  I see what you mean, I agree. It does seem a bit excessive that college is needed to prove those skills, though. I think the problem with high school education being insufficient now is a cultural mindset that academic success before college is not important. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think what is being taught is insufficient, just what is learned.