4 ms·

> what is politics or religion. How is that so? They have pretty clear definition.

eropple 5y ago
"My pronouns are she/her" is political when you have an audience who disagree with your right to choose them. (And those disagreeing are wrong, but telling them that suddenly, by the logic of the "no politics" crowd, makes you the problem. Almost like all of this exists to reify a status quo that's good for the people currently high on the hog. Hm.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Choices generally don’t bind others into obligation. Probably why you’re having trouble with uptake.
  - zxzax 5y ago
    Well, you're always bound to an obligation to be professional at work. If someone gets a legal name change, you would be expected to use the new name. Even if you thought that new name was funny, you'd be expected not to laugh at it and not to make fun of the person for having it. Pronouns really aren't any different.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      I agree to a large extent. I suppose it’s the voracity that some of these folks have over dictating other people’s words is a turn off.
      - zxzax 5y ago
        But these are personal things that everyone gets dictate for themselves. You get to specify what your pronouns are too.
      - retsibsi 5y ago
        The trans person is "dictating other people’s words" in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Given that the only obvious reason to actively refuse to use their preferred pronouns amounts to a pretty deep attack on the legitimacy of their identity, you can see why it would not feel like a trivial thing. You might be similarly intent on insisting that people call you <actual name> rather than <offensive nickname>; that's just as real an example of "dictating other people's words".
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > The trans person is “dictating other people’s words” in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Which, to be fair, everyone with names and/or pronoun preferences (including a preference for the pronoun that is associated with the gender one is assigned based on the appearance of one’s genitalia at birth) tends to do, its just that when either the name or pronoun preference conflicts with someone else’s ideological view of the world, then the person who is trying to impose their ideology over other’s identity projects the other person’s identity as a “political position” and an imposition on liberty.
        retsibsi 5y ago
        Yeah, I realised shortly after posting that comment that there's no need to reach for a metaphor or analogy; almost everyone insists on having a certain set of pronouns applied to them. Usually there's no friction because people instinctively use the ones we prefer, but that doesn't mean we're not ready to make the demand if necessary. (Try calling a random male colleague 'she' -- or a random female colleague 'he' -- for a week or two, and see how it goes down.)
        mixmastamyk 5y ago
        Many people call me by a common nickname, I personally never cared one way or another. Also I've found other folks who were really annoyed by it kinda boring, so there is precedent. (Guy who would insist on being called David if someone happened to say Dave.). In general I find it more productive to focus on myself than demand others conform.
      - anon7725 5y ago
        Ultimately it’s just about respecting people. It doesn’t cost you anything to do that.
        mixmastamyk 5y ago
        People I know are fine, it's people making demands on the internet that are the problem.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I think a reasonable definition of the terms would call that political when it's hypothetical and interpersonal when it's happening.
- johncessna 5y ago
  I think it's the forcing other people to accept your pronouns that's the problem, not that you can't pick your own.
  - philistine 5y ago
    You don’t pick pronouns for your own use, but always for others to refer to you. When was the last time you talked about yourself in the third person?
    - johncessna 5y ago
      I was just commenting on what the argument was. When someone tells you what their pronouns are and then you're expected to use said pronouns, then that's where people feel they're being forced to use specific pronouns. But since you asked, no I don't talk about myself in the third person.
      - zxzax 5y ago
        I mean yes, you are forced to accept the preferred pronouns when referring to any person. Where is that not already an expectation? When I was young, there was a particularly tall and broad-shouldered girl in one of my classes that some of the bullies used to call a boy. They would intentionally say he/him when referring to this girl. She obviously did not like that. Is it wrong of the teacher to punish them for doing this, forcing them to use the correct pronouns?
        retsibsi 5y ago
        This is a good example, I think. Just about everyone insists that other people use their preferred pronouns; it's just that most of us are lucky enough that ~everyone automatically does so. If you would complain if a colleague persistently referred to you as 'she' (if you're a man) or 'he' (if you're a woman), your real argument is not that nobody should be 'forced' to use a certain set of pronouns when referring to another person.
      - 5y ago
- j11m 5y ago
  This example strikes me as more as a case of inappropriate boundaries than politics. I do not believe that your or my _opinion_ of pronoun choice is really relevant. Specifically... You can put in whatever pronoun choice you believe is correct. I may or may not have an opinion about it. I can keep that opinion about it to myself, unless you ask for it. Nearly all political differences have nothing to do with performing one's job.
datr 5y ago
https://youtu.be/Ame0j8jbMY4 https://youtu.be/Ame0j8jbMY4

"My pronouns are she/her" is political when you have an audience who disagree with your right to choose them. (And those disagreeing are wrong, but telling them that suddenly, by the logic of the "no politics" crowd, makes you the problem. Almost like all of this exists to reify a status quo that's good for the people currently high on the hog. Hm.)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 5y ago
Choices generally don’t bind others into obligation. Probably why you’re having trouble with uptake.
- zxzax 5y ago
  Well, you're always bound to an obligation to be professional at work. If someone gets a legal name change, you would be expected to use the new name. Even if you thought that new name was funny, you'd be expected not to laugh at it and not to make fun of the person for having it. Pronouns really aren't any different.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    I agree to a large extent. I suppose it’s the voracity that some of these folks have over dictating other people’s words is a turn off.
    - zxzax 5y ago
      But these are personal things that everyone gets dictate for themselves. You get to specify what your pronouns are too.
    - retsibsi 5y ago
      The trans person is "dictating other people’s words" in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Given that the only obvious reason to actively refuse to use their preferred pronouns amounts to a pretty deep attack on the legitimacy of their identity, you can see why it would not feel like a trivial thing. You might be similarly intent on insisting that people call you <actual name> rather than <offensive nickname>; that's just as real an example of "dictating other people's words".
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > The trans person is “dictating other people’s words” in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Which, to be fair, everyone with names and/or pronoun preferences (including a preference for the pronoun that is associated with the gender one is assigned based on the appearance of one’s genitalia at birth) tends to do, its just that when either the name or pronoun preference conflicts with someone else’s ideological view of the world, then the person who is trying to impose their ideology over other’s identity projects the other person’s identity as a “political position” and an imposition on liberty.
        retsibsi 5y ago
        Yeah, I realised shortly after posting that comment that there's no need to reach for a metaphor or analogy; almost everyone insists on having a certain set of pronouns applied to them. Usually there's no friction because people instinctively use the ones we prefer, but that doesn't mean we're not ready to make the demand if necessary. (Try calling a random male colleague 'she' -- or a random female colleague 'he' -- for a week or two, and see how it goes down.)
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        Many people call me by a common nickname, I personally never cared one way or another. Also I've found other folks who were really annoyed by it kinda boring, so there is precedent. (Guy who would insist on being called David if someone happened to say Dave.). In general I find it more productive to focus on myself than demand others conform.
    - anon7725 5y ago
      Ultimately it’s just about respecting people. It doesn’t cost you anything to do that.
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        People I know are fine, it's people making demands on the internet that are the problem.
whatshisface 5y ago
I think a reasonable definition of the terms would call that political when it's hypothetical and interpersonal when it's happening.
johncessna 5y ago
I think it's the forcing other people to accept your pronouns that's the problem, not that you can't pick your own.
- philistine 5y ago
  You don’t pick pronouns for your own use, but always for others to refer to you. When was the last time you talked about yourself in the third person?
  - johncessna 5y ago
    I was just commenting on what the argument was. When someone tells you what their pronouns are and then you're expected to use said pronouns, then that's where people feel they're being forced to use specific pronouns. But since you asked, no I don't talk about myself in the third person.
    - zxzax 5y ago
      I mean yes, you are forced to accept the preferred pronouns when referring to any person. Where is that not already an expectation? When I was young, there was a particularly tall and broad-shouldered girl in one of my classes that some of the bullies used to call a boy. They would intentionally say he/him when referring to this girl. She obviously did not like that. Is it wrong of the teacher to punish them for doing this, forcing them to use the correct pronouns?
      - retsibsi 5y ago
        This is a good example, I think. Just about everyone insists that other people use their preferred pronouns; it's just that most of us are lucky enough that ~everyone automatically does so. If you would complain if a colleague persistently referred to you as 'she' (if you're a man) or 'he' (if you're a woman), your real argument is not that nobody should be 'forced' to use a certain set of pronouns when referring to another person.
    - 5y ago
j11m 5y ago
This example strikes me as more as a case of inappropriate boundaries than politics. I do not believe that your or my _opinion_ of pronoun choice is really relevant. Specifically... You can put in whatever pronoun choice you believe is correct. I may or may not have an opinion about it. I can keep that opinion about it to myself, unless you ask for it. Nearly all political differences have nothing to do with performing one's job.

datr 5y ago

https://youtu.be/Ame0j8jbMY4 https://youtu.be/Ame0j8jbMY4