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The problem with no religion and no politics is that it’s impossible to draw a line on what is politics or religion. Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there v

The problem with no religion and no politics is that it’s impossible to draw a line on what is politics or religion. Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. Are they wrong for mentioning that they are gay (no), but to some at the company that may be trying to advance their gay political agenda. Idk what the solution is, but just blanket “No religion/no politics” is just a way to say you like everything the way it is and don’t want to feel uncomfortable

danjac 5y ago
The thing is, it's not that Basecamp is apolitical. Politics is fine if it's the founders doing the politics. DHH has been very vocal in the last few months in public tirades against Apple, government lobbying, etc. While he has every right to his views, he's also the public face of Basecamp. So it comes across as a teeny bit hypocritical to issue a no-politics diktat on his workforce. The real problem with Basecamp isn't the no politics thing. The problem is that the company exists for the personal gratification of its two founders, and it's one rule for them and one rule for everyone else. If you're on board with that, fine, but maybe for some employees this was just the final straw.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  >DHH has been very vocal in the last few months in public tirades against Apple, government lobbying, etc. While he has every right to his views, he's also the public face of Basecamp. So it comes across as a teeny bit hypocritical to issue a no-politics diktat on his workforce. Being vocal about apple's business practices isn't necessarily political. It sounds more about business to me.
justicezyx 5y ago
> what is politics or religion. How is that so? They have pretty clear definition.
- eropple 5y ago
  "My pronouns are she/her" is political when you have an audience who disagree with your right to choose them. (And those disagreeing are wrong, but telling them that suddenly, by the logic of the "no politics" crowd, makes you the problem. Almost like all of this exists to reify a status quo that's good for the people currently high on the hog. Hm.)
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Choices generally don’t bind others into obligation. Probably why you’re having trouble with uptake.
    - zxzax 5y ago
      Well, you're always bound to an obligation to be professional at work. If someone gets a legal name change, you would be expected to use the new name. Even if you thought that new name was funny, you'd be expected not to laugh at it and not to make fun of the person for having it. Pronouns really aren't any different.
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        I agree to a large extent. I suppose it’s the voracity that some of these folks have over dictating other people’s words is a turn off.
        zxzax 5y ago
        But these are personal things that everyone gets dictate for themselves. You get to specify what your pronouns are too.
        retsibsi 5y ago
        The trans person is "dictating other people’s words" in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Given that the only obvious reason to actively refuse to use their preferred pronouns amounts to a pretty deep attack on the legitimacy of their identity, you can see why it would not feel like a trivial thing. You might be similarly intent on insisting that people call you <actual name> rather than <offensive nickname>; that's just as real an example of "dictating other people's words".
Baeocystin 5y ago
It genuinely isn't difficult in practice. Be polite and professional to your co-workers. That's it. If someone is gay, straight, whatever, it doesn't have any bearing on their work, so it's not something that's discussed. I have literally zero desire to hear about anybody's sexual relationships at work. If someone thinks that the mere presence of a gay person is an agenda, then they fail rule 1, which is be polite and professional to your co-workers, and it's on them to either get a grip or leave.
- tashoecraft 5y ago
  Work is not someplace you go and leave all your personality at the door. We’re humans, we share about our lives. You act like describing someone’s “sexual relationship” is x rated, but merely stating “my wife/husband” reveals their sexual relationship and 100% will come up in work.
  - Baeocystin 5y ago
    Unless their statement is "My wife/husband worked on a problem very similar to the one we're trying to solve here, let's give her/his solution a shot!" it's not a conversation I want to have at work, while trying to solve work problems.
    - retsibsi 5y ago
      Which is fine, but small/personal talk is extremely common at work, and many people would find a workplace completely devoid of it to be rather cold. I don't think most people saying 'no politics' want to take that as far as banning all talk of anything not directly related to the task at hand.
      - Baeocystin 5y ago
        Small/personal talk is best done in small, personal social settings. If two co-workers who know each other well are enjoying a conversation between themselves, great! I mean that. I have friends at work, too. But personal talk absolutely does not belong in larger meetings or workplace discussions where you're trying solve work issues. It's a distraction at best, and unprofessional in general.
fallingknife 5y ago
> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. It's not, though. I've worked with a lot of gay people, and none have ever brought politics into work. This is just a BS argument by the people who do. There is a legitimate point about where do you draw the line (e.g. is bitching about CA taxes "politics"), but this is not it.
- gurumeditations 5y ago
  When you’re under constant attack since the beginning of time by homophobic straight people, particularly in the political realm, your existence is political. If a liberal Supreme Court didn’t luckily strike down bans in many states in 2003, it would still be illegal today to be gay in Texas. Bans were struck down because they were enforced. Educate yourself on Gay life. You owe it.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  "Cool, we need to you visit a client site in a country which will murder you for your sexual orientation" is about as political as it gets.
Decker87 5y ago
How is someone existing a political issue?
- davidw 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosex... Thankfully, most places have moved on from that, but many still don't allow people to, say, marry the person they love.
deleted 5y ago
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wakeupbakeup 5y ago
> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. Maybe to you, but most of us don't give a shit either way. Please don't use your gay colleagues as political totems. It's actually quite dehumanizing. Just treat us as people. Thanks.
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koheripbal 5y ago
> a gay employee, there very existence is political. If someone considers their very existence political, I think that's a big red flag. Whether it's because they think society is persecuting them for being Christian, or for being gay, it will still be a high confidence predictor that they will create drama in the office.
- kelnos 5y ago
  No, I think you're missing the sense of the phrase. Gay people don't consider their existence political, but unfortunately others (through desired public/social policy) have politicized the existence of gay people. As in, "let's pretend they don't exist, ban them from anything that straight couples can do, and push them to get conversion therapy so they behave like us 'normal' folks".
  - calvinmorrison 5y ago
    Interestingly I once hired a trans person who, had converted to the other gender, sorry I don't really know the terminology. She was extremely proficient at her job (CSS/JS/Frontend) and so we were really impressed in the interview and seemed to have realistic expectations and views about workplace, workload and all sorts of other cultural ideas that matched nicely with ours. Her big question to use was "is there going to be a problem with me working here". As in "are people going to treat me like shit because I am transgender". It was an extremely professional environment and I and my boss unequivocally said - we don't care what you are as long as you do your job and do it well. I worked with her for probably near a year and I did not see people overtly treating her badly, making comments of any sort at all. People called her by a name that she chose and used the pronouns she wanted. Of course I don't know her experience but I can't express how it was a 'professional' environment enough. I have never worked somewhere that was so damn... professional. This included old dudes, old women, young men and women, people from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds (UK, India, Ukraine, and all over the US, and probably more places). People minded their own business, were polite, did not intrude upon personal matters, and while there was some jockying around sports teams - it was a place where all sorts of people and backgrounds worked. There was an extremely competent HR department, and middle management and C levels who were very serious about being professional. I don't know - kind of a rant - hopefully her experience at my workplace was one of her better ones.
bavell 5y ago
> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. With a few exceptions, I consider it very unprofessional for an employee or colleague of mine to start discussing their sexual preferences, gay or straight. I wouldn't ask for the same reason. > ... just blanket “No religion/no politics” is just a way to say you like everything the way it is and don’t want to feel uncomfortable I think you are just projecting. There are tons of benefits (mentioned elsewhere in these comments) to keeping politics & religion out of the workplace.
- deleted 5y ago
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- gifnamething 5y ago
  Then a wedding ring is unprofessional.
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  - bavell 5y ago
    Not sure how you reached this conclusion. How is this "discussing sexual preferences at work"?
    - gifnamething 5y ago
      Asexual people don't tend to marry
deleted 5y ago
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fastball 5y ago
Oh come on. I thought it was a given that "no P/R" means "no ugly P/R" – e.g. don't shit on your co-worker for being Muslim, don't shame your co-worker for voting for Trump. But it is fine to mention that you are fasting for Ramadan. Basically I think they should've just used HN's commenting guidelines instead of saying no politics.

danjac 5y ago

The thing is, it's not that Basecamp is apolitical. Politics is fine if it's the founders doing the politics. DHH has been very vocal in the last few months in public tirades against Apple, government lobbying, etc. While he has every right to his views, he's also the public face of Basecamp. So it comes across as a teeny bit hypocritical to issue a no-politics diktat on his workforce. The real problem with Basecamp isn't the no politics thing. The problem is that the company exists for the personal gratification of its two founders, and it's one rule for them and one rule for everyone else. If you're on board with that, fine, but maybe for some employees this was just the final straw.

LegitShady 5y ago
>DHH has been very vocal in the last few months in public tirades against Apple, government lobbying, etc. While he has every right to his views, he's also the public face of Basecamp. So it comes across as a teeny bit hypocritical to issue a no-politics diktat on his workforce. Being vocal about apple's business practices isn't necessarily political. It sounds more about business to me.

justicezyx 5y ago

> what is politics or religion. How is that so? They have pretty clear definition.

eropple 5y ago
"My pronouns are she/her" is political when you have an audience who disagree with your right to choose them. (And those disagreeing are wrong, but telling them that suddenly, by the logic of the "no politics" crowd, makes you the problem. Almost like all of this exists to reify a status quo that's good for the people currently high on the hog. Hm.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Choices generally don’t bind others into obligation. Probably why you’re having trouble with uptake.
  - zxzax 5y ago
    Well, you're always bound to an obligation to be professional at work. If someone gets a legal name change, you would be expected to use the new name. Even if you thought that new name was funny, you'd be expected not to laugh at it and not to make fun of the person for having it. Pronouns really aren't any different.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      I agree to a large extent. I suppose it’s the voracity that some of these folks have over dictating other people’s words is a turn off.
      - zxzax 5y ago
        But these are personal things that everyone gets dictate for themselves. You get to specify what your pronouns are too.
      - retsibsi 5y ago
        The trans person is "dictating other people’s words" in one, very limited context: when referring directly to that person. Given that the only obvious reason to actively refuse to use their preferred pronouns amounts to a pretty deep attack on the legitimacy of their identity, you can see why it would not feel like a trivial thing. You might be similarly intent on insisting that people call you <actual name> rather than <offensive nickname>; that's just as real an example of "dictating other people's words".

Baeocystin 5y ago

It genuinely isn't difficult in practice. Be polite and professional to your co-workers. That's it. If someone is gay, straight, whatever, it doesn't have any bearing on their work, so it's not something that's discussed. I have literally zero desire to hear about anybody's sexual relationships at work. If someone thinks that the mere presence of a gay person is an agenda, then they fail rule 1, which is be polite and professional to your co-workers, and it's on them to either get a grip or leave.

tashoecraft 5y ago
Work is not someplace you go and leave all your personality at the door. We’re humans, we share about our lives. You act like describing someone’s “sexual relationship” is x rated, but merely stating “my wife/husband” reveals their sexual relationship and 100% will come up in work.
- Baeocystin 5y ago
  Unless their statement is "My wife/husband worked on a problem very similar to the one we're trying to solve here, let's give her/his solution a shot!" it's not a conversation I want to have at work, while trying to solve work problems.
  - retsibsi 5y ago
    Which is fine, but small/personal talk is extremely common at work, and many people would find a workplace completely devoid of it to be rather cold. I don't think most people saying 'no politics' want to take that as far as banning all talk of anything not directly related to the task at hand.
    - Baeocystin 5y ago
      Small/personal talk is best done in small, personal social settings. If two co-workers who know each other well are enjoying a conversation between themselves, great! I mean that. I have friends at work, too. But personal talk absolutely does not belong in larger meetings or workplace discussions where you're trying solve work issues. It's a distraction at best, and unprofessional in general.

fallingknife 5y ago

> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. It's not, though. I've worked with a lot of gay people, and none have ever brought politics into work. This is just a BS argument by the people who do. There is a legitimate point about where do you draw the line (e.g. is bitching about CA taxes "politics"), but this is not it.

gurumeditations 5y ago
When you’re under constant attack since the beginning of time by homophobic straight people, particularly in the political realm, your existence is political. If a liberal Supreme Court didn’t luckily strike down bans in many states in 2003, it would still be illegal today to be gay in Texas. Bans were struck down because they were enforced. Educate yourself on Gay life. You owe it.
rodgerd 5y ago
"Cool, we need to you visit a client site in a country which will murder you for your sexual orientation" is about as political as it gets.

Decker87 5y ago

How is someone existing a political issue?

davidw 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosexuality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosex... Thankfully, most places have moved on from that, but many still don't allow people to, say, marry the person they love.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wakeupbakeup 5y ago

> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. Maybe to you, but most of us don't give a shit either way. Please don't use your gay colleagues as political totems. It's actually quite dehumanizing. Just treat us as people. Thanks.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

koheripbal 5y ago

> a gay employee, there very existence is political. If someone considers their very existence political, I think that's a big red flag. Whether it's because they think society is persecuting them for being Christian, or for being gay, it will still be a high confidence predictor that they will create drama in the office.

kelnos 5y ago
No, I think you're missing the sense of the phrase. Gay people don't consider their existence political, but unfortunately others (through desired public/social policy) have politicized the existence of gay people. As in, "let's pretend they don't exist, ban them from anything that straight couples can do, and push them to get conversion therapy so they behave like us 'normal' folks".
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  Interestingly I once hired a trans person who, had converted to the other gender, sorry I don't really know the terminology. She was extremely proficient at her job (CSS/JS/Frontend) and so we were really impressed in the interview and seemed to have realistic expectations and views about workplace, workload and all sorts of other cultural ideas that matched nicely with ours. Her big question to use was "is there going to be a problem with me working here". As in "are people going to treat me like shit because I am transgender". It was an extremely professional environment and I and my boss unequivocally said - we don't care what you are as long as you do your job and do it well. I worked with her for probably near a year and I did not see people overtly treating her badly, making comments of any sort at all. People called her by a name that she chose and used the pronouns she wanted. Of course I don't know her experience but I can't express how it was a 'professional' environment enough. I have never worked somewhere that was so damn... professional. This included old dudes, old women, young men and women, people from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds (UK, India, Ukraine, and all over the US, and probably more places). People minded their own business, were polite, did not intrude upon personal matters, and while there was some jockying around sports teams - it was a place where all sorts of people and backgrounds worked. There was an extremely competent HR department, and middle management and C levels who were very serious about being professional. I don't know - kind of a rant - hopefully her experience at my workplace was one of her better ones.

bavell 5y ago

> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. With a few exceptions, I consider it very unprofessional for an employee or colleague of mine to start discussing their sexual preferences, gay or straight. I wouldn't ask for the same reason. > ... just blanket “No religion/no politics” is just a way to say you like everything the way it is and don’t want to feel uncomfortable I think you are just projecting. There are tons of benefits (mentioned elsewhere in these comments) to keeping politics & religion out of the workplace.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gifnamething 5y ago
Then a wedding ring is unprofessional.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bavell 5y ago
  Not sure how you reached this conclusion. How is this "discussing sexual preferences at work"?
  - gifnamething 5y ago
    Asexual people don't tend to marry

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fastball 5y ago

Oh come on. I thought it was a given that "no P/R" means "no ugly P/R" – e.g. don't shit on your co-worker for being Muslim, don't shame your co-worker for voting for Trump. But it is fine to mention that you are fasting for Ramadan. Basically I think they should've just used HN's commenting guidelines instead of saying no politics.