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What I think is lost in the conversation here is that people don’t really have organizations they can go to to advocate their political positions. People have

• pochamago 5y ago
  I think for the people who are so passionate they can't imagine not engaging with politics at work should look for careers in NGOs. I don't feel any disdain for activists, I just don't really want to work with them, and I think we'd both be happier if they were engaged in work that had first order effects on their beliefs instead of second or third
  • randoramax 5y ago
    Not necessarily work for a ngo, but volunteer for one, join a union, join the local political groups that actually make a difference locally in your community. So many options, besides the work place.
  • fighterpilot 5y ago
    This assumes that it's an earnest desire to improve society (which it sometimes is), and not a desire to gain/maintain status or power through virtue signalling.
    • seoaeu 5y ago
      > a desire to gain/maintain status or power What you're describing is basically a textbook definition of 'politics'. I find it funny that you call this virtue signalling when that term was literally invented to describe the opposite: halfhearted political activism that isn't trying to build power.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • fighterpilot 5y ago
        Well, the word "politics" has various connotations in general usage, and many of them don't describe the phenomenon I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a cynical attempt at elevating one's zero-sum standing in a social group by showing conspicuous adherence to the group's purported moral orthodoxy. This[1] is good reading on the phenomenon. [1] https://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Ok-et-al.-2020.pdf https://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Ok-...
  • majani 5y ago
    Or a job in actual politics
    • grphtrdr 5y ago
      lol come on, that makes too much sense.
  • cblconfederate 5y ago
    People who are passionate about something would most likely like to recruit new people to their cause. Working for an NGO is a dead end as everyone is already on the same page there.
    • seoaeu 5y ago
      It is also a dead end because corporations have most of the power in the country.
• Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  "Workplace is inappropriate for politics" is a really ahistorical stance to take. All the things that you enjoy nowadays (8 hr work day, 5 day work week, no child labour, etc) came about as a result of organized politics at the workplace.
  • xbar 5y ago
    Nope. Those are all the results of laws which came from politically elected officials who made policy. None of my employers limited work hours or work days or children at work because of political discourse in the office. Nor did historical companies from 3 generations ago when such laws were passed. All of those laws were created because companies did NOT implement such limits.
    • hire_charts 5y ago
      Who do you think convinced the politicians to make it happen? Lobbyists? (Ha.) It came out of labor movements! Strikes and walkouts! In 1867 workers shut down the entire Chicago economy for a week! (Congress then passed an 8-hour law in 1868, but that was just one step along the way.)
    • nickff 5y ago
      >All of those laws were created because companies did NOT implement such limits. Many of the 'work standards' laws (including child labor laws) were actually enforcing standards and best-practices which originated from industry leaders. One example is how the mechanized textile manufacturers eliminated child labor (as it was unnecessary and uneconomical), then lobbied governments to ban child labor (probably to 'punish' their competitors). The 40-hour work week (largely) originated at various industry-leaders (notably including Ford, which was very efficient, and preferred energetic and loyal workers over tired and seasonal ones). https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs/story/40-hour-workweek-henry-ford-1026067-2017-07-27 https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs...
      • Ar-Curunir 5y ago
• jtdev 5y ago
  This “silent is complicit” angle is positively poisonous.
• wwwdonohue 5y ago
  People have plenty of places they can express their political opinions. They can go to rallies, canvass for candidates, phonebank, volunteer, etc. etc. And all those would actually make a difference! I think people just like complaining, don’t like working, and have identified in politics something that they can use to loaf that is “virtuous.”
• rsj_hn 5y ago
  > What I think is lost in the conversation here is that people don’t really have organizations they can go to to advocate their political positions. Why should workplaces serve as political-outlet therapy locations because people can't think of other organizations to use for this purpose? There are, in fact, countless numbers of political organizations and groups in the U.S. and you are free to start your own if you don't like anything on offer. The idea that you a company should cater to your other non-work desires such as baptism or finding a loved one or expressing your personal angst about some topic just because you're there and it's convenient doesn't make much sense. Yes, political activism takes time and you may not have time to go to a meeting after work or on weekends. That doesn't mean you can turn your workplace into a church or other political-therapy group.
  • sircastor 5y ago
    I think this is a side effect of American obsession with work. We really build our identities and lives around our jobs, and our corporations want and expect is to be there all the time.
    • rsj_hn 5y ago
      Yes, I think you are right. Americans work long hours, they spend far too much time at work, and many view work as something that should give them personal fulfillment. Combine that with a right-to-work situaion and a lot of people are investing too much into what is basically a profit-maximizing enterprise instead of a charity or social group.
  • lolinder 5y ago
    I think that's OP's point.
  • seoaeu 5y ago
    Some people it turns out, don't want "political-outlet therapy", they want to build actual political power. When you work for a company that already has that sort of power, activism like this is a natural approach. In fact, I suspect that many people dislike this approach because they know it is effective.
• HNfriend234 5y ago
  There are non-profit organizations or similar private organizations that are better suited for political activity. The workplace is not the correct place. I was also harassed by the "silence is complicit" attitude. Some other employees I work with would go up to me and ask me questions like "we want to know where you stand on xyz political issue".....and I'm like.....it is really none of your business. They then take that response as you "being part of the problem" and then start going after you personally. Like who the heck does that? Especially to coworkers.
  • gedy 5y ago
    Man, I'd report that the HR as a hostile work environment.
  • fighterpilot 5y ago
    That's psychopathic behavior.
  • yerwhat01010 5y ago
    > Some other employees I work with would go up to me and ask me questions like "we want to know where you stand on xyz political issue".....and I'm like.....it is really none of your business. They then take that response as you "being part of the problem" and then start going after you personally. These people are totalitarians.
    • toyg 5y ago
      Yeah, this is textbook totalitarianism. People think totalitarianism is about dictatorship, but it isn’t: it’s about public policy dominating every part of one’s being, removing any personal or private space. Forcing people to declare for this or that cause is absolutely totalitarian. It can be done with the best of intentions, but it’s still a unhealthy way of going about things.
• christophilus 5y ago
  When I see a Jehovah’s Witness coming up to my door, I pretend to not be home. I’d really hate to be forced to have that same feeling at work, but be unable to escape it. If you can’t do your job without evangelizing your coworkers in some form or fashion, maybe you should reconsider your career choices.
  • gkop 5y ago
    Please don't equate human rights activism to a religious movement.
    • christophilus 5y ago
      I’ve had two particularly obnoxious coworkers in my career. One on the left and one on the right. Their behavior was indistinguishable from that of a religious zealot. They were extremely unpleasant people, and no one should have to listen to them while on the clock. I didn’t say anything about human rights activism. I drew a parallel between religious zealotry and political zealotry in the workplace that I have personally experienced. And the parallel is perfectly apt.
      • fighterpilot 5y ago
        Horseshoe theory of political orientation. It's very true. Personality types of left and right wing zealots overlap tremendously (inclination towards authoritarianism etc)
        • WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
          I always thought it’s more of a donut (call it a torus if you want to sound smart) than a horseshoe.
          • fighterpilot 5y ago
            I like that label because it has a "stupid" connotation to it.
• brown9-2 5y ago
  > I’d hate to go into work and be harassed about being “silent is complicit” (which seems like it was one of the major drivers of the change) What is the source for this?
  • markmark 5y ago
    The original "Changes at Basecamp" post banning political discussion: "You shouldn't have to wonder if staying out of it means you're complicit"
    • brown9-2 5y ago
      Given what else we have learned about what went down from Casey Newton I would not believe things from the original post without a second source.
• 8note 5y ago
  Doing any work fundamentally pushes some political view. Mostly today it's neoliberalism in some form. I think an obvious alternative is to expect employees to actually support neoliberalism as a job qualification. Same as if you were working for an evangelical church, you'd expect people to try and convert everyone to Christianity
  • ardit33 5y ago
    say what? Someone cleaning houses, or working as a cashier is pushing political views? Is a McDonalds worker putting 'big beef' industry ideology forward? Most jobs have nothing to do with politics as most people don't have a true choice/luxury to be choose. Often people have to work, or starve/be homeless. Most jobs out there are not political. That includes building a simple email client.
• _RPL5_ 5y ago
  >People don’t really have organizations they can go to to advocate their political positions. >[People] need an outlet to push the ideas and causes they care about >I like that people want to express themselves and improve the world we live in, but they need to find a better place to do that. Political parties & elections are instruments designed to do just that. It's actually mildly alarming that people are so jaded they forget about these (?).
  • spaetzleesser 5y ago
    The US parties aren't really a place to express yourself. They are highly corrupt. It would be nice if the US system allowed for smaller parties to be viable.
  • shard972 5y ago
    They don't represent us?
• midrus 5y ago
  Can't agree more with this. As I commented in other thread, here in europe this is very uncommon. Here we go to work, to work. Football and politics don't lead to good ends anywhere. So, join any company outside to the US if you want to focus on work
  • toyg 5y ago
    It actually very much depends on what you mean by “work”. Go work in a European factory, and you’ll probably have to have a relationship with a union, which includes going to meetings and discussing causes. European offices, on the other hand (and particularly in the private sector), tend to follow the traditional “politics and salaries are taboo” culture, probably because those areas never required unionization to improve their working conditions.
• seoaeu 5y ago
  > What I think is lost in the conversation here is that people don’t really have organizations they can go to to advocate their political positions. [...] The workplace is one of the few places where they can feel like they’re having an impact, but that’s not really appropriate. Politics is how groups of humans decide the distribution of power between themselves. It should be completely unsurprising that there is corporate politics around what power employees have within a company. Your claim that it isn't appropriate for employees to engage in corporate politics is a deeply political statement and just means that you think all the power within a company should be wielded by someone else. You are entitled to that position just as others are allowed to engage in collective action (also just politics) to achieve a different distribution of power. I'd also add that it is weird how we live in a society where everyone acknowledges corporations have significant power over our government, yet people seem to be surprised that individuals working for them want a say in how those corporations operate (which would by extension grant influence over the government).
• phendrenad2 5y ago
  I agree, and I think the mechanism that causes people to feel this way is, people are angry about a system that has failed to be equal, and work feels like part of "the system", so people feel as though a change at work will somehow change the system at large. And there's some truth to that.
• specialist 5y ago
  FYI, There's a zillion local orgs for political parties, policy, advocacy, volunteering, etc. But since they're mostly volunteer run, they're mostly discovered word of mouth. I tried twice to start a study group based on the book Becoming a Citizen Activist. Focus more on the how, vs the what. I haven't yet figured out how to make it self-sustaining. I'm not sure it's possible.
• garfieldnate 5y ago
  I took a residency test for Germany recently, and some basic knowledge about how to participate in the political system was required. In NRW where I live, we have a "Landeszentrale für Politische Bildung", or state center for political education. People can go there (or the website) to educate themselves on and discuss current topics, and also learn how to participate in the system itself (through citizen initiatives, etc.). I thought it was pretty amazing that this was required knowledge for living here! If we had anything like this in California, I never heard about it growing up there.